Poll Crafting

[NESchampion]

It is not about paranoia, rules lawyering or any abuse of any nature. I am simply defining what our player characters are supposed to be, they are extraordinairy people who are adventurers, and their stats reflect this. This game is supposed to be about adventuring, exploring and mortal danger. It is not about sitting in front of an oven 12 hours a day to earn enough money to feed your family for the day, that is what real life is about.

Apparantly it's about sitting in a tavern for 12 hours when no DM is on. More realistic than doing something productive? Not to me... just my opinion though.

[Nyarlathotep]

I remember the good old days back in college when we used to refer to 12 hours sitting in a tavern as a Monday.

[Rusty]

You can't think of a single reason why a PC would ICly want to make a set of armor or a weapon or arrows or a bow?

...

The point is not if they would want to, but how they would go about doing it, and whether this justifies a universal mundane crafting system.

How does a PC acquire these complex skills? Why do they acquire them? Doesn't all the time they spend acquiring them detract from their Class skills? And, more importantly, why don't they just buy the damn thing from a professional? Even if they want to make it themselves, why don't they buy the components from professional suppliers? If they want something special, why don't they order custom-made equipment from expert manufacturers?

Now in a small-scale Persistent World, where the population is overwhelmingly PCs, and the economy is entirely PC-focused, and there are commoner/merchant/professional type classes, this kind of system might work, without compromising roleplay. In ALFA, however, it is wildly inappropriate. Consider, if you will, the economics of a PC gathering a group of like-minded buddies, going to a monster-infested mine, clearing out the spawns (with all the associated risk and expense), mining their own iron ore, carting back sufficient quantities to town, turning it into usuable metal, and then forging a decent piece of weaponry or armour. They are little short of absurd.

Anyone can think of an IC way for a PC to get involved in "crafting", but that is not what is being discussed. What is being discussed is the creation of a free-standing crafting system; a system that will be functionally and fundamentally at odds with ALFA's commitment to hardcore, IC, roleplay.

[Lusipher]

This whole debate is pointless. Crafting can be put in and made so it doesnt effect thing so much. You can set limits on money being made by players. Crafting gives players something to do when no DM is around, it can also be used to make some cash, and it can be used to be a part of a DM plot. Its not wrong to put in crafting especially in ALFA where there is nothing to do most of the time in game unless a DM is on.

All this back and forth is just that...a lot of hot air. Everytime this subject comes up we get this. A lot of hot air and then finally someone up top decides its not worth the time to mess with. Just once it would be nice to see someone with some pull around here to get this ball a rolling. Put the system in with the necessary tweaks and then watch how it goes. If it needs to be tweaked more then tweak it. Its not as hard as most folks make it out to be.

[zicada]

Player characters are adventurers, they are not bakers, butchers, shoesalesmen, weavers, chefs or anything similar by trade. It's why you dont see the whole village run out to raid that orc stronghold. Also, mundane craftsmen are also very poor, whereas a successful adventurer is by comparison relatively rich.

Mord has it right.

I don't see why Alfa should spent so much time and energy implementing this. To me its a dead horse. Add a working crafting system to 15 or so live servers ? Sounds like alot of fun

If some char wants to craft something, he could easily contact a DM and rp it out.

[Fionn]

zic - I don't fully understand the appeal, perhaps it's the whole Brunnor Battlehammer lust, but there are peeps that *have* to play a Dwarven Weaponsmith warrior. They can certainly just have that as a backstory and never actually spend the time because they're too busy killing Dragons, but the players *want* to make the occasional item with their logo on it.

I'm really not interested in back-fitting our Live serrvers at this point. IMO, this is a philisophical discussion for NWN2 (or ALFA mkII if we stick with this client).

Can we do another poll with the following:

In the event that ALFA chooses to implement *mundane* (including MW) crafting at IC facilities (borrowed, rented, public, private, whatever), I would prefer:

* Max profit would be well below the rate for adventuring.
** Max profit would be up to the rate sane adventuring.

1. DM Only. House rules per DM.

2. DM Run, but per standardized ALFA guidelines

3. Scripted with tightly controlled resources. Limit on max GP/hr profit**.

4. Scripted with loosely controlled resources. Limit on max GP/hr profit*.

5. Scripted with no resources (available in the 'shop'). Limit on max GP/hr profit*.

6. Scripted with tightly controlled resources, but PC-PC sales only.

7. Scripted with loosely controlled resources, but PC-PC sales only.

[Rick7475]

Well, here it is again. It looks like the majority of people in ALFA want it, but will it be put in?

Is this community really a democracy? Or will something the majority of the community wants be turfed again because the minority post more?

[Fionn]

will something the majority of the community wants be turfed again because the minority post more?

Bear in mind, the majority isn't writing the scripts, testing, nor updating the mods. Note also, that while the majority seem to feel that they either support or won't mind 'crafting' in some form, we've yet to agree on what form is acceptable to the majority.

My first option is already in. Ask any DM to make a custom mundane Longsword, he'll give you his house rules ;)

[Blackwill]

Please hold off on any more polls, and stick to the subject.
I'd like all hot and cold air to sease so people that haven't voiced their opinion about the subject topic can make themselves heard. I'd like to keep this friendly, and just opinions at the moment. Discussions could be related to other treads if you all wish too. By the end of the weekend we'll have a good idea of how most people feel about this, and then a possible proposal(s) could be shot down or approved.

By the way, I'm looking into manpower for this, IF a proposal is accepted by the community and admin.

Thank you.

[Ronan]

Mord has it right.

I don't see why Alfa should spent so much time and energy implementing this.

Me either, which is why I'm not doing it But if someone wants to do it for ALFA, integrated it with the basemod2, and provide docs (wikis) which explain to builders how to use and configure the system, then more power to them. I don't see the need to focus on crafting, but if the motivation is there to do it right it seems silly to waste it. It is a LOT of work. Of course another crafting system could be integrated too, but thats not something I am going to commit my person time to doing. Someone else can look at it, create (or copy) the docs, and do the math on how it will effect play balance and our standards. Any way you cut it its a lot of work.

Gathering truely mundane resources is a bit obsurd in FR. Fortunately D&D provides quite a few, rare, quasi-magical resources like mithral which would be difficult to gather.

I'm at school, my home internet connection is fubar, and I don't have much time. So I'll comment more later.

[NESchampion]

Please hold off on any more polls, and stick to the subject.
I'd like all hot and cold air to sease so people that haven't voiced their opinion about the subject topic can make themselves heard. I'd like to keep this friendly, and just opinions at the moment. Discussions could be related to other treads if you all wish too. By the end of the weekend we'll have a good idea of how most people feel about this, and then a possible proposal(s) could be shot down or approved.

By the way, I'm looking into manpower for this, IF a proposal is accepted by the community and admin.

Thank you.

As always, while I'm not much of a script kiddie, I'm more than happy to beta test anything.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Well, here it is again. It looks like the majority of people in ALFA want it, but will it be put in?

Is this community really a democracy? Or will something the majority of the community wants be turfed again because the minority post more?

The idea of wanting something broad isn't terribly difficult. Coming up with a workable and implementable system tends to be the rub. Particularly when a number of your typical "workhorses" have no interest in working on it (disclosure: I voted don't care, I think mundane crafting is not worth the effort, but fully appreciate the right of someone to derive obscene pleasure from building it), and it does have to ultimately satisfy things other than just the interests of crafting itself.

If someone wanted to make this happen, my recommendation would be to start a "build team" oriented around designing the scripting behind it. Then, keep in contact with Tech (relating to such things as use of persistant variables, processor cycles, etc) and Standards (recipes, value of components, value of crafted items, comparison to canon value and philosophy of translation, time/value rates/limitations) regarding both a) General design doc and b) Actual implemented system. Be sure when you're crafting it to well-dcoument the system for Tech including prototyping/commenting and an overall readme, and instructions for inclusion in the basemod. Also be sure you're building in a training/usage document for builders/HDMs. I would also, just for the sake of it, keep the DMA and HDM pretty well-informed after it passes the Standards ringer to avoid an Admin-vote hangup.

When you've got a tweaked and tested system, be willing to demonstrate it for Tech, particularly the QA work you've done, and put it to Standards for a yay/nay vote (which would probably just be a formality if you kept in touch with them throughout the affair). On the basis of Tech and Standards with a thumbs up, without crucial HDM objections, I can't see this getting stuffed.

Now, while that may sound like a lot, it's at least all out on paper. All someone needs is the team to do it.

[Rick7475]

Well, here it is again. It looks like the majority of people in ALFA want it, but will it be put in?

Is this community really a democracy? Or will something the majority of the community wants be turfed again because the minority post more?

The idea of wanting something broad isn't terribly difficult. Coming up with a workable and implementable system tends to be the rub. Particularly when a number of your typical "workhorses" have no interest in working on it (disclosure: I voted don't care, I think mundane crafting is not worth the effort, but fully appreciate the right of someone to derive obscene pleasure from building it), and it does have to ultimately satisfy things other than just the interests of crafting itself.

If someone wanted to make this happen, my recommendation would be to start a "build team" oriented around designing the scripting behind it. Then, keep in contact with Tech (relating to such things as use of persistant variables, processor cycles, etc) and Standards (recipes, value of components, value of crafted items, comparison to canon value and philosophy of translation, time/value rates/limitations) regarding both a) General design doc and b) Actual implemented system. Be sure when you're crafting it to well-dcoument the system for Tech including prototyping/commenting and an overall readme, and instructions for inclusion in the basemod. Also be sure you're building in a training/usage document for builders/HDMs. I would also, just for the sake of it, keep the DMA and HDM pretty well-informed after it passes the Standards ringer to avoid an Admin-vote hangup.

When you've got a tweaked and tested system, be willing to demonstrate it for Tech, particularly the QA work you've done, and put it to Standards for a yay/nay vote (which would probably just be a formality if you kept in touch with them throughout the affair). On the basis of Tech and Standards with a thumbs up, without crucial HDM objections, I can't see this getting stuffed.

Now, while that may sound like a lot, it's at least all out on paper. All someone needs is the team to do it.

Well, in that case, no point in building anything at all. This would be more work that the builders of all the other crafting systems engaged in.

No point in even having the vote. Why keep teasing the ALFA membership when you will set so many standards that no one will ever want to build for ALFA?

[Kildahr]

Hmmmm, arguments arguments arguments, one or two level-headed replies.......

I'm game for it, and although I know nearly no scripting, I'm willing to help in any way that'll fit around my schoolwork ^^

Crafting, I'm all for. Just make it so that people can't sell their wares to NPCs. Make it more of a player-on- player economy. That way people who want to rp being a crafter can still sell to people who need 'em, and those who want to farm can get caught.

*puts on his three inch helmet and digs a bunker for upcoming replies*

[NickD]

The only other PW I've played in for more than a session or two (years and years ago) introduced crafting. At that point every just farmed the resources and spent their online time crafting. I did that as well and quickly got bored and left.

I still think we should have crafting. We're a high roleplay world, so I think we can handle it. But I also think raw materials should be few and far between with a very slow respawn time and not necessarily easy to collect. Raw materials that are grown specifically would be owned by someone so you wouldn't be able to just go and take those, you'd either have to buy your own mine or fields or find them in the wilderness and chances are you'd need some kind of logging or mining permit from the local lord.

You could also have 20 (or 100) versions of each crafting item, so you spend a minute (or 5) working over the forge and your old item disappears and you get a new item with a description "This is 5% complete", and you'd need say 5 items for a chain shirt and 100 items for a set of full plate armour.


Or whatever.