Poll Crafting

[NESchampion]

Absolutely not.

Any reasons why not, or just your opinion?

[NESchampion]

Philosophically speaking, the paradigm of D&D is that you roleplay adventuring heroes who are larger than life. Sitting on a stool making shoes just doesn't seem to comport with this image. Mundane crafting just seems too mundane for adventure class PC's to be engaging in.

Realisticly speaking, I've never had a PnP session without a DM; persistant worlds don't always have a DM.

Not too surprisingly, I voted no. I see no real benefit. Some people like to grind, so they want a crafting system. Grinding that crafting system will keep them logged in, but that logged in time will be used for solo crafting, not multiplayer rp. Ultimately, coded crafting causes some people to avoid multiplayer rp in favor of crafting activities.

Only if that's that players desire; is that worse than having them either A) not logged in. or B) Sitting in the Inn emoting drinking ale for five hours and doing no real RPing there either?

The whole point of a crafting system is to "give PC's something to do when a DM isn't on" which means by definition it has to involve grinding solo, and grinding solo is not conducive to a multiplayer roleplaying environment.

In your quoted statement, I think I noticed something you might've missed: "PCs" is plural, as in more than one. Lack of DM does not mean lack of other players except when there is nothing to do without the DM. Frankly, it's going to be hard to solo craft if you require other crafter output, and raw materials are guarded by mobs too strong for one character.

"By definition" only means you've assigned that definition; that doesn't make it truer than if I said "Giraffes, by definition, are smelly."

[Brokenbone]

If one wants to mundane craft, it can be done without items that fit in your inventory.

*rolls dough*

*bakes pie*

*eats pie*

Gold expended: 0
Gold profit: 0

...

I'm not sure that's exactly Dungeons n' Dragons though.

...

Magicky crafting though is part of DnD. Cheap stuff not requiring components could include potions, scrolls, wands, you won't go out into the woods and grind away for... well, exotic stuff.

Expensive things, magic arms and armor, wondrous items, rods, staves... well, from time to time, those will need weird components ("A fire elemental's tears? How the hell do I collect those!?"), but high impact items, I sure wouldn't turn away the offer of a DM'd quest to pull some people together to search out such stuff. I'd tend to think DM discretion might mean most formulae for items are UNIQUE, one mage's method of creating a wand of lightning involves a behir's scales being powdered, another instead needs the wood of an oak felled by lightning in its hundredth year of life... I'd hate to just have to run to "the forest of very old and lightning endangered trees" and hunt for branches statically on the ground, or "the behir cave where behirs shed a lot", etc.

I don't know, magic = exotic to me, same for the ingredients/components, and none of the above are something I'd like to see just sitting here and there, absent a DM's aid. *shrugs*

...

PS mmm, pie.

[NESchampion]

If one wants to mundane craft, it can be done without items that fit in your inventory.

*rolls dough*

*bakes pie*

*eats pie*

Gold expended: 0
Gold profit: 0

...

I'm not sure that's exactly Dungeons n' Dragons though.

...

Magicky crafting though is part of DnD. Cheap stuff not requiring components could include potions, scrolls, wands, you won't go out into the woods and grind away for... well, exotic stuff.

Expensive things, magic arms and armor, wondrous items, rods, staves... well, from time to time, those will need weird components ("A fire elemental's tears? How the hell do I collect those!?"), but high impact items, I sure wouldn't turn away the offer of a DM'd quest to pull some people together to search out such stuff. I'd tend to think DM discretion might mean most formulae for items are UNIQUE, one mage's method of creating a wand of lightning involves a behir's scales being powdered, another instead needs the wood of an oak felled by lightning in its hundredth year of life... I'd hate to just have to run to "the forest of very old and lightning endangered trees" and hunt for branches statically on the ground, or "the behir cave where behirs shed a lot", etc.

I don't know, magic = exotic to me, same for the ingredients/components, and none of the above are something I'd like to see just sitting here and there, absent a DM's aid. *shrugs*

...

PS mmm, pie.

I can't just conjure up swords or armor though. Is materwork still mundane?

[Mulu]

Philosophically speaking, the paradigm of D&D is that you roleplay adventuring heroes who are larger than life. Sitting on a stool making shoes just doesn't seem to comport with this image. Mundane crafting just seems too mundane for adventure class PC's to be engaging in.

Realisticly speaking, I've never had a PnP session without a DM; persistant worlds don't always have a DM.

Point taken, but that doesn't mean you have to break the paradigm. Adventure, glory, honor, trust, friendship, courage, fear, desire, ambition, none of those things require DM's, and none of them are easily provided by crafting.

Not too surprisingly, I voted no. I see no real benefit. Some people like to grind, so they want a crafting system. Grinding that crafting system will keep them logged in, but that logged in time will be used for solo crafting, not multiplayer rp. Ultimately, coded crafting causes some people to avoid multiplayer rp in favor of crafting activities.

Only if that's that players desire; is that worse than having them either A) not logged in. or B) Sitting in the Inn emoting drinking ale for five hours and doing no real RPing there either?

Which is why I prefer option C ) Adventuring and roleplaying in a party to overcome challenges, whether they be tactical combat or gathering information, or helping some old woman fix her barn for that matter.

The whole point of a crafting system is to "give PC's something to do when a DM isn't on" which means by definition it has to involve grinding solo, and grinding solo is not conducive to a multiplayer roleplaying environment.

In your quoted statement, I think I noticed something you might've missed: "PCs" is plural, as in more than one. Lack of DM does not mean lack of other players except when there is nothing to do without the DM. Frankly, it's going to be hard to solo craft if you require other crafter output, and raw materials are guarded by mobs too strong for one character.

If it's hard to solo craft, then it won't satisfy it's purpose of keeping people logged in, at least not any better than NoLo static content intended to be done in groups. And as for as taking out mobs, you can do that with IC reasons just as well *without* the component. In other words, the crafting isn't adding anything as far as adventuring is concerned that you can get without it, other than some unsellable mundane junk at the end.

"By definition" only means you've assigned that definition; that doesn't make it truer than if I said "Giraffes, by definition, are smelly."

It's a lot truer, since the many discussions of crafting have all hinged on creating DM'less activity. Perhaps you haven't read them. Granted, one of the options presented here was mundane crafting with DM assistance, but even that one is presumably mostly DM'less, only requiring a DM for the final stages or something.

Bottom line, crafting encourages soloing, and mundane crafting is a poor fit for an adventuring PC. If you want to sew dresses, play the Sims. (Though it looks like I'm being strongly outvoted in the poll )

[Fionn]

:arrow: keeps players online until someone else shows up

:arrow: keep available crafting locations limited in distribution to create centres of player density

:arrow: tie some crafting components into LoNo scripted quests, again striving to create mini-adventures without requiring constant DM supervision

:arrow: don't like it, don't use it

+1

TPI's fishing scripts do just this. I'm certain we've a few armorsmiths would love to sit at an anvil rather than the shore with a similar script. Nothing I want to do as a PC, but then I don't like farming mobs either.

Please get past the 'it's not realistic' issue. If it's fun for another PC to make small gains doing mundane tasks (rather than large gains doing risky tasks), I can deal with the fact that our economy is not to scale. If we really wish, we can tie it into the wealth limits easy enough - implementation can tweak any concerns. The question here is, do we want to allow it at all. Next we ask how. Next we ask who wants to do it ;)

[Mord]

Absolutely not.

Any reasons why not, or just your opinion?

I posted my attempt to reason with you.

[Brokenbone]

<snip>The question here is, do we want to allow it at all. Next we ask how. Next we ask who wants to do it

I assume mundane crafting takes a hell of a lot of effort to balance and build. Sticking iron, wood, pie-filling, or other sorts of caches out in the woods, hills, wherever... lots of strategizing, lots of building / scripting.

Magicky crafting probably relies less on "things you'll find out there statically", and more on a good relationship with your DMs. Unique items, maybe it's unique components, no two people's recipes for even the same result necessarily agree (i.e., Mage #1 needs powdered horn of blue dragon for his "Wand of Lightning" recipe, Mage #2 is instead seeking wood from an oak struck down in a storm in its hundredth year of life). I'd figure this is a good recipe for drama, fun, and adventure.

Anyhow, a quest for nymph tears results in a RP'd encounter of "forces a nymph to cry at knifepoint, steals her tears", rather than "finds nymph statically, kills her, loots a "tears" item from her corpse." Ah well, players are permitted to express whatever wishes they want, it would be foolish of me to say "have fun tormenting nymphs with me, not chopping down a tree all alone", but the more DM'less you go, the more into rulemaking and building you'll have to get before you can enjoy the system. DMs doing ad hoc quests just sounds more fun to me. YMMV

[Fionn]

Well, I'd use onConvo for the nymph to see if you tried to Pursuade or Intimidate her.

I assume mundane crafting takes a hell of a lot of effort to balance and build. Sticking iron, wood, pie-filling, or other sorts of caches out in the woods, hills, wherever... lots of strategizing, lots of building / scripting.

Honestly, if peeps just want to grind out stuff for 5-30 GP/RL hour, we don't *need* to have the CNR items available. A workbench/anvil can be created, hold an persistant INT and persistant string with the time and item a PC is working on. When the time = time required for the item, presto. We can make it cost 1 GP/hr and pay 3 GP/hr if you want 'investment'.

For NWN2, we can certainly mandate this in server design. All servers must have all Common resources, 2-3 rare, and 1 exotic (unique).

Now, if peeps wish to make a *living* at crafting, that's a whole other topic. As long as it's a way to waste time while awaiting an adventure, plus make enough coin to pay for coach-fare and ales, it doesn't need to be balanced (it's so low, it's never going to be exploited). If it becomes a way for elite blacksmiths to crank out MW Jeweled Gold Full Plate twice a day, then we've got serious issues.

[Mulu]

Picking up on Fionn's comment, one of the things that has always seemed silly to me about crafting was mining your own ore and chopping your own wood. Unless it's something really rare, like mithril or whatever, shouldn't you able to just buy basic items like iron ingots and raw wood? I can't imagine every NPC blacksmith has to take a mule into the hills and swing a pick for a day in order to make a cooking pot.

[Fionn]

One possible slant for this would be to tie it with the Perstistant Portable Placeables I'm working on. There's no reason an adventurer blacksmith should need or want to make 50 cooking pots. There's strong reason they would wish to make tent frames, folding camp stools, shovels, pick-axes, etc. Useable RP gear makes a lot of sense. Some of it may be available from adventuring stores, but at a higher cost.

Anyhow - an idea on the floor.

[CuriosityEngine]

Why are we even discussing making pies or shoes? An adventurer can be an armorsmith or a weaponsmith. But a baker? Tailor, yes. leatherworker, yes(guess shoes could fall in there ) When you think of crafting, it seems your running the full gamit(sp?) of crafting when it could just be limited to what a normal adventurer would do. Cooking, it's possible, but no skills are needed there really. Bowmaker, jeweler for you fancy types, blacksmithing for smelting ore. I dont consider these mundane. Baking is mundane. Armor not so mundane.

[Fionn]

Baking is mundane. Armor not so mundane.

You have obviously never met a high end Baker.

That aside, I've zero concern with what people wish to craft, nor how it's implemented. My only concern is that it's either 100% realistic, or so far below the normal wealth curve that you can't PG yourself to PC6 gear and PC3 XP.

[Arkan Bladesinger]

Honestly, I don´t care.

Unless every other char starts to have self-made full plate +5, which I know won´t happen.

Not an activity any of my chars would ever participate in, but I do believe that craftmanship takes time to learn and that time would be away from adventuring. Also think it´d take a smith and a mage to make a , say, magic weapon/armour and few have skills in both careers enough.

2 cent.

[NESchampion]

Realisticly speaking, I've never had a PnP session without a DM; persistant worlds don't always have a DM.

Point taken, but that doesn't mean you have to break the paradigm. Adventure, glory, honor, trust, friendship, courage, fear, desire, ambition, none of those things require DM's, and none of them are easily provided by crafting.

Ambition, adventure, and desire aren't provided by crafting??

Only if that's that players desire; is that worse than having them either A) not logged in. or B) Sitting in the Inn emoting drinking ale for five hours and doing no real RPing there either?

Which is why I prefer option C ) Adventuring and roleplaying in a party to overcome challenges, whether they be tactical combat or gathering information, or helping some old woman fix her barn for that matter.

And how does a crafting system interfere with that? If a group goes out to adventure to gather materials, do they not need to overcome the same challenges as you just stated? Tactical combat would still come into play.

In your quoted statement, I think I noticed something you might've missed: "PCs" is plural, as in more than one. Lack of DM does not mean lack of other players except when there is nothing to do without the DM. Frankly, it's going to be hard to solo craft if you require other crafter output, and raw materials are guarded by mobs too strong for one character.

If it's hard to solo craft, then it won't satisfy it's purpose of keeping people logged in, at least not any better than NoLo static content intended to be done in groups. And as for as taking out mobs, you can do that with IC reasons just as well *without* the component. In other words, the crafting isn't adding anything as far as adventuring is concerned that you can get without it, other than some unsellable mundane junk at the end.

So, first you dislike crafting because it could be solo oriented; then when I point out that it can be group oriented, you dislike it again because you don't feel people will be logged in to barter for materials, form groups to gather materials, or try to sell their wares to other PCs?

So, you want players to have something to do without DM's, but not solo because that discourages RP and not groups because that won't work any better than currently. Kindof rules out anything that could possibly be added staticly for characters. Just a bit.

"By definition" only means you've assigned that definition; that doesn't make it truer than if I said "Giraffes, by definition, are smelly."

Bottom line, crafting encourages soloing-

Even though you haven't shown in any meaningful way that crafting encourages soloing other than saying it does, I'll take it at face value; let's say it does. And let's say we code it so you can't refine get any resources without being in a party with at least two other people in the same area as you. And then, we make it so when a DM is online, you can't access crafting devices.

So now you can't get stuff alone; if no DMs are on you can craft away, but if a DM comes on you're "too tired to continue" and thus need to go to an Inn and relax and RP. Nevermind the RP associated with gathering a group for claiming resources, bartering for materials for your goods, and trying to sell / advertise your wares; that kind of RP doesn't qualify as RP apparantly.