Player poll: Prefered solutions to the density problem?

[NickD]

While that sounds great on paper, Kill, who decides which rules we are to be more open about? I remember a year and a half ago we had some pretty long arguments about whether players should be allowed more than one character. I don't know if you were one of them, but at least one person insisted they would leave ALFA if players were to be allowed multiple characters.

[Grand Fromage]

last thing before nwn2 goes live, we shut down all the servers but the beefiest one we got...and then its ALFA cage match!

If anyone survives my dragon hunt.

[Sandermann]

So... May I ask why you think it's right to crap on people wanting to give, regardless of player congregations of minimal proportions?

Pot meet kettle.

ALFA chooses one course and you choose another, que sera.
Where does your "freedom from rules" end. Do we let people run about OOC grinding mobs to level, because its fun for them? This isnt an MMO, Killy, its a tightly controlled RP PW without a single leader.

Giving here means more than just giving your time, it means giving to compromise aswell and striving to find a common ground, something you were never prepared to do iirc.

[Mayhem]

I voted 4, but at the same time recognise that some PCs simply write themselves into a corner, with no IC reasons to leave a server.

Then again, as it stands at the moment, we *claim* to hate server hoppers, whilst at the same time rewarding them, whilst stay at home PCs fall behind in XP, riches and roleplayign opportunities.

The irony faintly amuses me - if a PC travels when he has no good IC reason to, he gets rewarded, not punished. If he doesn't travel, thsu staying 100% IC, he doesn't get rewarded at all.

****

If we chose teh 4th option, then, it would have to be a co-operative effort - we would have to make it clear to players that travel is part of the game, and encourage them not to make permanent ties to given areas.

This, of course, breaks a big hole in current organisations like the Daggerford militia where you get hung if you go AWOL, and IC rewards like local titles and authority.

Would we have to avoid such things, or simply ake sure they were sufficient rewards involved to make up for the xp/gold lost by not travelling?

[Dorn]

Killy,

I think maybe you might be right in some cases. Some people will ONLY build a certain place. Thats their perogative and i fully respect it. On the other hand, some people love building and DMing and if one area doesnt get up will build another wherever that may be. Then again, some people will decide not to build anywhere except they want to and will remain as a player rather than leaving ALFA.

I know of several people who are set to build and/or play on more than on PW come NWN2. All of which are regulated and hardcore RP games that will reflect principles similat to ALFA. Certianly there are many opportunities accross the NWN2 community for building (toril was quite successful in a small place and many of their members have contributed here strongly as well). It'd be a crying shame if people did go...but unfortunantly we cant make everything in a community of differently minded people of several hundred ideal for everyone.

I just think we should be wary of saying 'open slather for all just so you stay here!'. This may lead to us having more servers than we do now (which few people see as a good idea) and similar situations with regards to that which we have currently in the longer term.

ALFA is not a collection of PWs. It is one PW based on several servers. People should be building for the betterment of ALFA AND their own enjoyment. This means that if it's best for ALFA to limit the divisions in the DM base through consolidating servers...then thats the way we should work. If in the end it's decided that many many small servers is the best way then thats the way people should work....but i just cannot see the logic as to how that is better in terms of gameplay and management. Maybe it's ideal in terms of people building what they want....but as i said, i think it needs to be done in the context of whats best for alfa as a whole (Builders AND live DMs AND Players).

There are many other ways to contribute if people dont want to build where it's thought best for ALFA as a whole...hell PLAYERS contribute a lot to this world as well

[Killthorne]

Giving here means more than just giving your time, it means giving to compromise aswell and striving to find a common ground, something you were never prepared to do iirc.

Well, no. Not when it's my free time, money, and work here that I volunteer. I am not going to build or DM for a tight circle of people running the show here, who really don't impress me at all, nor instill any of that fun factor that should apply. Instead, they've made it rather distasteful.

Where does your "freedom from rules" end. Do we let people run about OOC grinding mobs to level, because its fun for them? This isnt an MMO, Killy, its a tightly controlled RP PW without a single leader.

No crap Sand. Tightly-controlled.... Did I say "freedom from rules"? I don't recall that I did. I said, OPEN UP MORE! Did I say, "let's turn it into a MMOPG fest!" No, I didn't. I am saying let people GIVE, and perhaps your one PW might start feeling like one PW, instead of several cliques of people being pushed around by one elitist group.

~Killthorne~

[Fionn]

If only it were one elitist group. Get your facts strait Kill - it's at least 3 elitist groups ;)

[Mulu]

And Killy used to be in one of them. If it weren't for the damage to the community that it's caused, I'd be laughing my ass off over Killy's posts here. "Open up the rules?" This from the guy who thinks allowing a druid's animal companion to fight should result in a ban....

You could cut the irony with a knife.

[AlmightyTDawg]

I am not going to build or DM for a tight circle of people running the show here, who really don't impress me at all, nor instill any of that fun factor that should apply. Instead, they've made it rather distasteful.
...
I am saying let people GIVE, and perhaps your one PW might start feeling like one PW, instead of several cliques of people being pushed around by one elitist group.

One of the things I've come to detest in the rhetoric are the implicit assumptions and now the no-longer-passive-agressive insults. Who on god's green earth cares if people "impress" you? What could possibly be the remote value of adding that to the conversation?

Get some things straight here folks. There is no grand conspiracy, and no desire to sabotage the project. I may not be terribly happy with the dismissive attitude folks on each sides use to characterize others, but come on. Does anyone here seriously think the other "side" is trying to torpedo the project? And if you raised your hand, I'd seriously recommend you take off the tinted shades, go get a drink, and come back to the discussion when you've had a breather. Editor's Note: "Drink" is not meant to exclusively imply alcohol. Please obey all local laws regarding alcohol consumption. If you choose to imbibe alcohol, please drink responsibly, don't drink and drive, and remember you don't get /that/ much funnier when you drink.

Everyone here has an opinion about what makes a good project. Some people see the lack of control and the bloated server numbers versus population and don't want to repreat it. Some people believe simply "if you build it, they will come." MK's never going to convince Killy that him being allowed to build is going to instantaneously carry us into a high server-count/low quality community. Killy's never going to convince MK that building every possible server is our best foot forward.

But come on, if you think the other side doesn't have validity, you're way too wrapped up in your point of view. The devil's in details that can't be legislated. And probably the most important one is the collective attitude in the community. As best I can see, the real stalwarts on each side are ensuring that NO plan will work to best effect.

[Mikayla]

Ultimately ALFA is a community of people, so, to get anything done in ALFA, to be a part of ALFA, you have to be a part of the community. Being a part of a community means agreeing and abiding by most of the rules, mores, traditions, etc. that define the community. People incapable or unwilling to compromise and work with the community are not helpful - the community should not have to bend for a particular individual, the individual should bend for the community. A community should be responsive to the needs of its individuals of course, and both Lead Admin candidates attempted to address concerns individuals have raised, but the whole of the community cannot be compromised for a single individual's desires.

As for cliques, there is no ruling elite clique I know of - Squamatus and I are both Admin, and though we are cordial/polite with each other, do you really think we are in the same 'clique'? Am I and Inaubryn in the same 'clique'? I think not.

ALFA is governed by ALFAns. ALFA is comprised of people. A large enough group of people comprises a community and a community, to survive, must for the most part reflect and respect the values of the majority of its people - and it will never satisfy every person on every issue - its a matter of compromise. Those unwilling to compromise lack either the skill or the desire to be a part of the community.

[ç i p h é r]

Well, no. Not when it's my free time, money, and work here that I volunteer. I am not going to build or DM for a tight circle of people running the show here, who really don't impress me at all, nor instill any of that fun factor that should apply. Instead, they've made it rather distasteful.

First Murky said it and now you've said it. Who exactly is this tight group of people that runs the show? Are you suggesting that the elections are RIGGED? Frankly, I can't fathom how anyone would harbor such a conspiratorial view of this community when all you need to do is look at the elections we've had over the past 10 months. Can you honestly say that any of the Admin who have unseated their predecessors belong to this cabal you speak of?

Sure, there are factions within this community stitched together by a set of core beliefs, and sure the direction of the project may change depending on who gets to call the shots during Admin terms, but that hardly constitutes "control" by a tight circle of people. If you think this way about ALFA, you certainly won't find any greener pastures in projects elsewhere that are owned and run by an individual or a group beholden to nobody but themselves and whose leadership is not subject whatsoever to an election.

Clearly, you don't like the decisions that have been made by our prior Admin team leading up to NWN2, but that team has turned over COMPLETELY, some of whom have openly disagreed with one another in key areas of this transition. If your point of view isn't being heard or shared by those running the project presently, then either that point of view just isn't shared by many or you're not making your case well. Seeing what's being said in this thread and how, I'm going to guess it's the latter.

[Killthorne]

And Killy used to be in one of them. If it weren't for the damage to the community that it's caused, I'd be laughing my ass off over Killy's posts here. "Open up the rules?" This from the guy who thinks allowing a druid's animal companion to fight should result in a ban....

You could cut the irony with a knife.

Uh, wasn't me. Said they shouldn't be abused, but certainly not out of the fight always. Nice try, lamer.

Did I say OPEN UP THE RULES? No. Open up your hearts and minds abit. When you say, here's the way a few of us set it up, here's the way we want it, so grin and bear it if you want to stay and contribute ( otherwise you're just being selfish!)... it's not a very healthy means of gaining support.

You want to impress people. You want people to make up this community. You need to impress. Deadlines, hypothetical guesses and stampedes don't impress much. I could do relatively the same thing to everyone.... spend an afternoon and write endless outlines with dates, server regions, etc., etc... shove it down your throat and say, this is it. Would you like that?

All I've seen over the last few months, is the *same* people, admin or no, calling all the shots regardless of whom or what they run over in the process. No second thoughts, no thoughts to consider anyone. No cares about the people that make up this community, or future members. Just what can we do to isolate ourselves even more. What we can do to cut corners, ultimately cutting people out. Limit ourselves by piling it all together and making it all symmetrical, and making it extremely difficult to compete to have a server up. No players? Then you can't give, unless you do what we say.

Lemernis was right. It's a hobby. Tell a fisherman he's only got 20ft. of line to toss in the water and that he can only fish in one spot, and he'll tell you to fsck off. Tell someone that does model trains, that he's got only five feet of track to work with and can only use three cars, and he'll quit.

I am not asking for the community, or anyone to bend for me. In fact, I am just speaking my mind. Good luck to all in NWN2. Just remember that a community that truly works together, and looks to add more appendages to it's reach, will succeed. One that stampedes policies, drastic changes and procedures on it's people, without even taking the time to speak about it, or listen... *shrug*

~Killthorne~

[Stormseeker]

Tell a fisherman he's only got 20ft. of line to toss in the water and that he can only fish in one spot, and he'll tell you to fsck off.

lol just thought i would put in it's obvious that you have never fished the salamon runs in alaska.

I put forth my views, explained my posistion, and that's it. Dont like the way this place is runed? Step up to the political platform and start campaigning...otherwise enjoy the ride.

[AlmightyTDawg]

You want to impress people. You want people to make up this community. You need to impress. Deadlines, hypothetical guesses and stampedes don't impress much. I could do relatively the same thing to everyone.... spend an afternoon and write endless outlines with dates, server regions, etc., etc... shove it down your throat and say, this is it. Would you like that?

Nice try at a save, but not buying it. Because, yet again, you went right back to the passive-agressive cracks. Lacking a strong argument you're just throwing out loaded terms like "stampedes" and "endless outlines" and "shove it down your throat." There has been so much discussion over this that to characterize it as railroaded is baffling. There was the regions issue, which was a nonstarter. There is competitive versus consensus, and that's just style. There was let everyone build, or structured building, which is a philosophy and unless you missed it there's a pretty wide range of opinions on that.

I am not asking for the community, or anyone to bend for me. In fact, I am just speaking my mind. Good luck to all in NWN2. Just remember that a community that truly works together, and looks to add more appendages to it's reach, will succeed. One that stampedes policies, drastic changes and procedures on it's people, without even taking the time to speak about it, or listen... *shrug*

And the problem you're frequently having is throwing out those kinds of insults and light on content. What was there came out of months of discussion on the NWN2 boards and while it certainly included the personal aim and slant of the original Admin team, there was months of discussion after it. Does it mean nobody was listening because you never made a convincing argument to that Admin body? Does it mean nobody was listening when the Lead Admin debate was largely based on making changes?

Whether or not you "spend an afternoon and write endless outlines with dates, server regions, etc., etc," the fact remains that there are few people who want to take the effort to compromise in the community and put something out there. And it's based on the idea that the community "works together" exactly like you said. Just a different definition of the phrase apparently.

Get over yourself. People are trying their best. You don't agree, and I respect that opinion. But your continued characterization of that as fascist and deaf to criticism is not only misplaced, it's outright shameful. I think you're a half step from becoming what you used to criticize with a passion.

[Mikayla]

Kill:

No second thoughts, no thoughts to consider anyone. No cares about the people that make up this community, or future members. Just what can we do to isolate ourselves even more. What we can do to cut corners, ultimately cutting people out. Limit ourselves by piling it all together and making it all symmetrical, and making it extremely difficult to compete to have a server up. No players? Then you can't give, unless you do what we say.

This is just insulting and wrong. The NWN2 forums, with their many, many, many threads about how to organize ALFA, how to improve it, what to change and what not to change, all the debate, from many sides, the recent discussions and debates by Lead Admin candidates, the endless threads discussing every nuance of the process are proof that these issues have been discussed - that there are second thoughts (both Lead Admin for instance, discussing that the plans need to be changed), consideration is given to many (I personally started a thread specifically about addressing your concerns - perhaps I misunderstood them, but I was concerned about your opinions and others).

The one thing that ALFAns have been doing, and doing in spades, is discussing NWN2 and the transition plan - to say that someone (and who by the way?) has irrevocably shoved something down someone's throat is simply incorrect. I would post examples, but we have entire forums dedicated to discussing how to make ALFA for NWN2 - there is nothing that is discussed more here.

Your allegations are spiteful, incorrect and insulting to all those who have struggled to plan for the future of ALFA - and that is coming from the person whose plan was rejected by ALFA when she lost an election. While I lost, I at least recognize that the plans were discussed, policy was debated, and ALFA as a community chose a course of action - neither I nor Inaubryn have stampeded anyone - we do not have the power.

A diatribe about the evil conspiracy that put ALFA's plans into place is ludicrous - ALFA is many things but it is not a tyrannical dictatorship. Indeed, one of Inaubryn's central points is that ALFA is too bureacratic and not autocratic enough.

ALFA is a group of people struggling to play a game and as we move into NWN2 we are trying to learn from the mistakes of our past - one of the most common and persistant complaints from players in NWN1 was the lack of consistency between servers, and so many people have struggled to come with ways to address and fix that problem - that you do not want to comply with the solutions adopted by the community is not evidence of an evil conspiracy, it is only evidence that perhaps ALFA is not right for you - but that is a call you have to make.