xp for rogues

[Fionn]

Remove trap already has as serious boon in the aquisition of the trap. Part of the issue with the 'Hey Thief' script is that stealth is badly broken - you'd need WIS18 commoners to have much of a chance of spotting any Rog1 with normal skills.

As for XP = X * (DC - Skill), that sounds good. I'm not sure how to factor in boosts from equipment. If you have +12 from gear (+10 skill, +5 DEX), it rather makes the trap less challenging if we don't count the gear. OTOH, I forsee rogues taking off gear to maximize the XP reward if we do count gear.

I don't have enough time or interest in this system to take it on though. If you can find someone to write/edit I'd love to help test it. DimRet and ECL are pretty paramount (prefereably tied into the normal alfa systems)

[Mulu]

And I don't buy simple failure as a risk. "Risk" means specifically a chance of losing resources...wealth, consumables, hp, the typical stuff, or even RP consequences if that can be managed. Just not being able to pick the lock is not in any of those categories.

Hence the *noise* from failing, thus generating immediate risk.

Remove trap already has as serious boon in the aquisition of the trap.

Depends on the quality of the trap. You usually can't sell them, they don't sell for much if you can, they are heavy to carry around, and it's *still* using the skill, just like killing a monster and getting the boon of a good loot drop is still using combat skill.

Part of the issue with the 'Hey Thief' script is that stealth is badly broken - you'd need WIS18 commoners to have much of a chance of spotting any Rog1 with normal skills.

It could drop you out of stealth, like a failed pick pocket roll does....

As for XP = X * (DC - Skill), that sounds good. I'm not sure how to factor in boosts from equipment. If you have +12 from gear (+10 skill, +5 DEX), it rather makes the trap less challenging if we don't count the gear. OTOH, I forsee rogues taking off gear to maximize the XP reward if we do count gear.

Yeah, I thought about that too, except that you don't know in advance when picking a lock what it's DC will be, and you should get xp once per lock, no resets. Traps you could ID, though even then you only get an estimate of their DC, not a hard number.

I don't have enough time or interest in this system to take it on though. If you can find someone to write/edit I'd love to help test it. DimRet and ECL are pretty paramount (prefereably tied into the normal alfa systems)

Well, if it just goes on the long long list of NWN2 optional systems, I'll be happy.

In the meantime, I don't want to hear any bitching about rogues having too much wealth... it's not our fault the system doesn't give us xp rewards as we gain wealth.

[Blackwill]

I just wanted to add that my support goes to including XP awards depending on lock and trap DC. It's something I found appropriate in BG2, and something lacking in NWN (as far as I've seen). Just be carefully this doesn't turn out into a possible exploit.

[indio]

As Cereborn grew tired of saying..if we grant xp to the Remove Trap and Pick Lock skills, we grant xp for all skill use.

[Dorn]

Good point that actually.

Where is the line?

Do we get exp then for using lore? bluff? etc?

I'm not poo pooing the idea out of hand...but why does the disabling of traps (which have their own reward of the recovered traps themselves) deserve exp above other skill use?

[Blackwill]

why does the disabling of traps (which have their own reward of the recovered traps themselves) deserve exp above other skill use?

I believe it adds incentive to rogue PCs. The tasks of disabeling traps and opening locks useually are linked to dangerous circumstances so do deserve a little amount of XP. If I'd suggest a range, it would be something like 5 XP for minor traps/locks to 50 XP for major traps/locks.

But like I said, I see a possible exploit. It would be advisable to only set certain traps and locks with xp rewards if this is implemented. And prefferebly locks which aren't in any way player controlled. I wouldn't like to see players gaining xp to pick their own PC owned house. Locking the door again, and picking it for it's XP over and over could be such a huge exploit.

[wvincenti]

Good point that actually.

Where is the line?

Do we get exp then for using lore? bluff? etc?

I'm not poo pooing the idea out of hand...but why does the disabling of traps (which have their own reward of the recovered traps themselves) deserve exp above other skill use?

If a DM is present the answer is usually yes.

If a DM isn't I'd love to see some of this scripted, especially if there are some graceful ways to give out some xp while limiting the opportunities for exploitation.

-Bill

[fluffmonster]

To grant XP for picking a lock, you'd have to remember whether that lock was ever picked...should a rogue get xp for picking the same lock over and over again? I'd think not, so you'd end up having to put a persistent variable on the PC for each and every lock. Too much.

XP needs to be on the prize, not every step of the way. We don't give xp for every time a wizard casts a spell or every time a fighter hits somebody with his sword. The xp comes when the entire encounter is overcome. This should be no different.

It would also be worthwhile to remember than DnD is not meant as an experience-for-skill-use game.

[Burt]

No way in hell. Let's leave DMs with something to do.

[Drankathar]

leave it be or script it for a thieves guild one off quest like they had in BG2. simple eh?

[Nyarlathotep]

If we could script it so that a failed attempt to disarm a trap sets it off I think rewarding XP for it would be fine.

[Blackwill]

leave it be or script it for a thieves guild one off quest like they had in BG2. simple eh?

That's a good idea. Something I'll have to keep in mind when building for NWN2.

[Mayhem]

Well, ideally I suppose you'd have class proper statics for all classes, and there would no xp available except from DM's and appropriate statics. But that would take a lot of work. You're talking about statics specifically designed for rogue / cleric / paladin / bard / fighter / ranger, etc.

Not really - I'm talking about the same static that gives you the same reward for completign that static no matter what method you choose.

So the Fighter can simply kick down the door and cleave through the Bandits to retrieve the McGuffin.

The Rogue can sneak around the Bandits, enter the cave by the trapped back door, and silently pick the lock on the chest.

The Bard charms or bribes a lone bandit sentry to get the item.

The mage uses his spells to do any of the above, depending on his particular personality.

****

They get the XP for succesful completion of the task, not for the method used.

It means statics need perhaps a little more thought, but that can only be a good thing compared to supplying a basic, combat-favouring "kill all the monsters, grab the loot" static.

And with no XP for random monster kills, you eliminate power-leveling byt the combat enabled. Level playing field for warmongers and pacifists.

[Mulu]

As Cereborn grew tired of saying..if we grant xp to the Remove Trap and Pick Lock skills, we grant xp for all skill use.

I'm not poo pooing the idea out of hand...but why does the disabling of traps (which have their own reward of the recovered traps themselves) deserve exp above other skill use?

Because picking locks and disabling / recovering traps is being done for the wealth at the end, which can be substantial if you're good at it. In other words, it's an IC way of generating wealth without getting any xp, thus leading to wealth imbalances over time, since you are gaining wealth much faster than you are gaining levels, a problem not encountered by the "kill things and take their stuff" crowd that ALFA is designed for. This is a very specific balance issue artificially created by the wealth limits that only applies to rogues that are played as thieves. One of those pesky unintended consequences.

So, no, unless other skills are generating significant wealth, there is no reason for xp to be gained by using them, since they aren't causing any wealth imbalances.

Obviously there are little "jobs" you can do in game that also generate wealth without xp, like fishing. But you don't roll up a "fisherman" PC, at least I hope you don't in the context of a heroic fantasy role playing game. A "thief" character is completly in context for an FRPG, yet without DM intervention they can't gain any xp from playing their role, and DM intervention is extremely rare. I've been DM'ed in a rogue role exactly twice in ALFA, though I'm looking forward to more.

This problem only hits rogues who are actually played as thieves, as opposed to other professions with rogue skills. You can actually gain more wealth by killing things and taking their stuff, and get xp to boot while you're doing it, but a rogue thief build isn't going to be very good at that, and it isn't IC.

The other option is to disregard wealth level limits for rogues, which requires no work at all, and I'm also fine with.

[ç i p h é r]

I've always liked the idea. The risk is in getting caught, and presumably, suffering the penalty for that, be it paying a fine, gaining notoriety, earning prison time, or even execution (in some places).

Part of building an interesting, immersive world is creating an environment that reacts to what players do. Stealing as well as B&E are natural activities which invoke a reaction: Lawful guards will arrest you if you're spotted pick pocketing, attacking someone, or breaking & entering. Evil gaurds will extort money from you and chaotic (overzealous) guards may just give you a good beating. The alignment variance can keep it interesting. Commoners will ask you to leave their homes, call for help if you break in or assault them. And so forth. These are things loosely defined in the basemod feature specs (AI + reputation) but they need to be flushed out. The XP aside, this is one of those things I really would like to see in the game. Obsidian may have the framework for this already implemented from the sounds of it.

As for XP, you earn XP in PnP for disarming traps, though I'm not sure you earn it for lock picking. The exploit of this in a non-DM'd situation is fairly obvious, though we can impose daily limits on the lock (once picked, it can't be picked again for another 24 hours - ie *the door is barred*). Regardless, having failure result in an *audible noise* (a shout to nearby NPC guard listeners) seems like a nice idea to add a little danger to the world of thieving. I'd be okay with tacking on XP for all rogue activities, including pick pocket, for the purposes of balancing wealth with level. That rewards them for staying IC and not running off seeking combat opportunities to earn levels.