PA Questions for FoamBats4All

[FoamBats4All]

Hi. If the PA thing doesn't work out, would you volunteer as an AR?

I'm not entirely sure. One one hand, I'd like to see more diversity in ALFA's ARs, and if no one else would apply, I would. On the other hand, I have some ideas that are rather administrative in nature, which is why I'm running in the first place. Those can't be done as an AR.

It's more likely that I'll volunteer my time to ALFA with more tech work or by applying to DM (which I encourage everyone who is interested to do!).

[shad0wfax]

What are your thoughts on one player "redlighting" another player without a basis in griefing or harassment?

[t-ice]

Rather than hitting them with offenses for 'grievous' offenses, such as farming statics or such, just make it impossible to farm statics. It takes a bit of effort on Standards and the HDMs, but it's something that needs to be done.

By using preventative solutions to mitigate the possibility of offenses, most of the stress of the position will come from player complaints. Which, I think I can handle fairly well.

One one hand I do like the notion of "making powegaming/farming offenses impossible" by scripted control. Because we, at least theoretically, have that power over our fantasy world implementation. And persecuting offenses is an awful mess that leaves hurt people all around. But such global scripts are a strong tool to use, and I can think of no notion more fraught to the cliche that the road to hell is lined with good intentions than "creating a system where crime is impossible". (Also, I'm reading Orwell's 1984 presently...)

On the other hand, I have some ideas that are rather administrative in nature, which is why I'm running in the first place.

I gather this means that driving forward this "script away farming/powergaming" vision as the main reason you're running. So I'd like to ask you to give some details of how you see the end result being. For example, would the system be restricted to XP gains scripts, essentially trying to remove the XP incentive for doing powergame/farming, as your XP gains drop off? Or would you like to extend the system towards the content itself, so that statics and/or spawns would not be available to a PC who is flagged as powergaming?

Crucially, a question that hopefully our LA could chime his view at, too: The "administrative" ideas of "making powergaming -crime impossible" seems to me to fall to the purvey of standards and DMs, and thus the DMA. It's the DM team(s) that are charged with the power and responsibility to "moderate advancement". Yet it is for PA you are running for with this platform. To my knowledge you have no experience of ALFA from the DM side? Yet you propose to implement this global "advancement moderation" vision of yours over all of ALFA's DM teams?

So while I commend your enthusiasm, it is the air a voluenteer community like this breathes, and I largely agree with the objective of your "script away crime rather than having to persecute" vision (given the old "devil is in the details caveat"), I can't help but wonder do you have the experience and the breadth of vision of the project to know what you're getting into? Doubly so since to me it seems you're running for PA with a vision that administrates over matters belonging to the DMA. So even if you are elected, you could find out that the things you came there for are not the ones that fall on your desk. Which is a double bummer, both you failing to do what you're enthusiastic about, and the things that do fall to the PA desk being half-heartedly done.

[Rotku]

I've got a question - forgive me for being so blunt.

You've been zapped for powergaming in the past. What makes you a good fit for judging and ruling on other people? What assurances do we have that the rules won't be applied through goggles that might not agree with ALFA's approach?

[Castano]

I don't think DMs would sneer at a system to sweep away the worst abuses. We do need it and it won't solve 100% of the issues, but if it takes care of the stupid cases or 85% of the cases that's a huge win. IMO it would need DMA aprpoval to go in as XP awards fall squarely with the DMA and design of systems are the TA's domain.

[oldgrayrogue]

There is quite a lot of discussion of farming and efforts to curb farming in your thread. To me, farming, powergaming, and powerleveling all derive from the same motivation: the pursuit of XP and gold at the expense of roleplay. In other words, the player's prime motivation is XP and gold accumulation, and the player "farms" the static content to obtain it in order to increase in power (i.e. XP and wealth). Min maxed builds etc, are all just a way of maximizing power and hence increasing the ability to obtain more power. To me these are not difficult concepts to understand. This is why I asked about RPXP abuse, for example, which I find another type of "farming" beyond the example of killing the same orc over and over.

Do you think the above general definition of these OOC abuses of the static content is difficult to understand? It seems from your response to my last post and your platform that you do. What is it that you find vague or confusing about it as expressed in our rules? How will you decide disputes over farming and powergaming etc if you are confused as to those concepts, and what is prohibited under our rules, yourself? What makes "mining" XP from the RPXP script by sitting idle with a few chats for hours and hours different from killing the same orc over and over? Aren't they both forms of "farming" XP?

On a related note, do you believe that players should have the expectation of receiving gold and XP rewards whenever they are logged on? I have heard the argument that capping the RPXP script per RL time logged will "make people not log on." You seem to believe the same. Doesn't that assume that people are logging on primarily for the XP and not for the RP? I am interested in your thoughts on this.

How will all of these scripted systems you propose promote the style of story based RP that ALFA stands for? For example, under your "notification" system as I understand it, a player will be notified once they reach some predetermined level of XP gain per some set period of time. What is the objective level of XP gain that you determine to be indicative of abuse? Does the RP motivation for that gain matter? What about XP and wealth gain from DMd content? What will you do as PA if players hit the notification cap and then stop playing until the time clicker turns over again? Will you investigate those players for farming or powergaming? How will your systems prevent someone from logging on, farming to their heart's content without roleplay, then logging off when they receive the notification, wait a while, rinse, repeat, rinse repeat? Log in and roleplay for DMd events, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. Will you investigate/prosecute such patterns of gaming for rules violations? Or will you rely entirely upon your scripted system and deem anything that falls within the system to be "within the rules"?

In terms of attracting new players and player retention, what are your thoughts on how level disparity effects attracting new players and player retention?

Finally, do you believe, philosophically, that we should trust our players to obey the rules and punish those players proven to have violated them, or do you believe that we should assume everyone will violate the rules if given the opportunity and use computers to seek to prevent all violations before they can happen. I think I know the answer but want to be certain.

Sorry, a lot of questions I know, but it is an important post you are running for =D

[CloudDancing]

I've got a question - forgive me for being so blunt.

You've been zapped for powergaming in the past. What makes you a good fit for judging and ruling on other people? What assurances do we have that the rules won't be applied through goggles that might not agree with ALFA's approach?

Foam getting spanked lightly with no strike for "farming" was just a formality and probably this complete arbitrary issue and the following conflict is WHY Foambatz is running.

There was no implicit rule implied that caused this accusation but more of a "house rule" used on TSM about not doing more than one or two statics a day that was applied to no such rule on BG.

Many players did exactly the same series of quests, prior to Foam, ME being one of them (twice in fact on two different characters one prior to Foam even being in Alfa), in the same time frame and received no warning or strike previously.

If anything Foambatz is the only candidate here that has built and administrated an entire server independently as HDM and the only one has been a System Operator and a Tech Admin.

[FoamBats4All]

What are your thoughts on one player "redlighting" another player without a basis in griefing or harassment?

My personal thoughts? I wish the members in question could get along without the need for redlights.

So, your question is specifically about redlighting without a basis. How would I handle it? I'd suggest that the two players do their best to ignore or deal with each other like reasonable adults. If it continues to be a problem, I'd investigate what -- or who -- is the root of the problem, and punish accordingly.

[danielmn]

I've got a question - forgive me for being so blunt.

You've been zapped for powergaming in the past. What makes you a good fit for judging and ruling on other people? What assurances do we have that the rules won't be applied through goggles that might not agree with ALFA's approach?

Foam getting spanked lightly with no strike for "farming" was just a formality and probably this complete arbitrary issue and the following conflict is WHY Foambatz is running.

There was no implicit rule implied that caused this accusation but more of a "house rule" used on TSM about not doing more than one or two statics a day that was applied to no such rule on BG.

Many players did exactly the same series of quests, prior to Foam, ME being one of them (twice in fact on two different characters one prior to Foam even being in Alfa), in the same time frame and received no warning or strike previously. You see when you don't play all the time you like to fill your playtime with the available and wholesome activities amply provided by the Dms. You don't lay things about if you don't expect people to pick them up or pick them off.

If anything Foambatz is the only candidate here that has built and administrated an entire server independently as HDM and the only one has been a System Operator and a Tech Admin.

As a note, this bearing no reflection of my own leanings in this election:

I am glad to know that my case is considered arbitrary, considering I did not find anyone else abusing these statics at that time (perhaps I could have delved through all players to find others). That former PA's failed to act on previous occurances is sad, but something I cannot be held accountable for. I can only do what is in my own perveiw, had I more than a 90 day window to work with I am sure that there was a lot more ignored in the past that I could have brought to dispute with different players. But I am glad to know my own persuit of upholding the rules and spirit of the community is considered a formality. I think it a pretty clear breach of the rules of conduct myself, however generalized they may be. Static quest farming is just that: static quest farming...so simple a concept I don't think it need be debated too hard. Now, where to draw the line on such is arbitrary for certain, I thought the case worthy to persue facts considered. That the player THEMSELVES expressed shock over someone gaining that much xp over that little amount of time in IRC when I had stated such (naming no names in irc of coarse) shows just how veiws can change...from the attitude of "I can't believe that's even possible" before it is known I referred to them, to " I can't believe I'm being called out for this" after it is known. I guess it's different when it's you, versus someone else. All that being said, Foam has behaved since the time period, and the Office of the PA has had no further problems with the player. I applaud the player for running in hopes to continue the project of the developement of a dim-ret system to make further occurances like this obsolete, and wish the candidate the best of luck.

[Castano]

This is really divisive guys. It makes people not want to contribute.

[FoamBats4All]

On the other hand, I have some ideas that are rather administrative in nature, which is why I'm running in the first place.

Crucially, a question that hopefully our LA could chime his view at, too: The "administrative" ideas of "making powergaming -crime impossible" seems to me to fall to the purvey of standards and DMs, and thus the DMA. It's the DM team(s) that are charged with the power and responsibility to "moderate advancement". Yet it is for PA you are running for with this platform. To my knowledge you have no experience of ALFA from the DM side? Yet you propose to implement this global "advancement moderation" vision of yours over all of ALFA's DM teams?

So while I commend your enthusiasm, it is the air a voluenteer community like this breathes, and I largely agree with the objective of your "script away crime rather than having to persecute" vision (given the old "devil is in the details caveat"), I can't help but wonder do you have the experience and the breadth of vision of the project to know what you're getting into? Doubly so since to me it seems you're running for PA with a vision that administrates over matters belonging to the DMA. So even if you are elected, you could find out that the things you came there for are not the ones that fall on your desk. Which is a double bummer, both you failing to do what you're enthusiastic about, and the things that do fall to the PA desk being half-heartedly done.

To clarify, I have said in past answers that I look forward to working with the rest of the administration. I'm not running for Supreme Dictator of ALFA, I'm running for PA. PA is in charge of player punishment, for one thing. One of those punishments is for powergaming/farming and the like. To help make my and future PA jobs easier, I would like to curb that, by working with the other administrators. See my previous answers for more information.

I could get elected and not be able to do what I would like to see done, sure. But I'm willing to step up and give it a shot. As for the concern that I will shurk my PA duties, I believe that to be rather unfounded. I have the time and energy to do both. However, thank you for the concern. While my efforts regarding punishment prevention may be stopped by the other admins, I believe it worth attempting, working with, and compromising on.

To your particular questions related to my actual running:

I gather this means that driving forward this "script away farming/powergaming" vision as the main reason you're running. So I'd like to ask you to give some details of how you see the end result being. For example, would the system be restricted to XP gains scripts, essentially trying to remove the XP incentive for doing powergame/farming, as your XP gains drop off? Or would you like to extend the system towards the content itself, so that statics and/or spawns would not be available to a PC who is flagged as powergaming?

Yes, the main preventative measure would be to remove the reward for powergaming/farming. This would mean a gradually diminishing (eventually to 0) reward for combat, easily implemented timer-driven repeatable statics (like how mail is done on BG), and the inability to take/turn in one-time statics. There is, of course, the system Daniel and Zelk were working on. If elected, I would be eager to sort through it with both him and her, to further discuss the details with the current administration.

[FoamBats4All]

Do you think the above general definition of these OOC abuses of the static content is difficult to understand? It seems from your response to my last post and your platform that you do. What is it that you find vague or confusing about it as expressed in our rules? How will you decide disputes over farming and powergaming etc if you are confused as to those concepts, and what is prohibited under our rules, yourself? What makes "mining" XP from the RPXP script by sitting idle with a few chats for hours and hours different from killing the same orc over and over? Aren't they both forms of "farming" XP?

Because we are a roleplay server, not a grinding server. We award our players for roleplay. Our DMs do it. Our standards do it. Our builders do it. I believe that the only way to farm RP XP would be to write a macro to write emotes for you while you go to sleep.

Should I find evidence of someone doing that, I will be handing out rather severe punishments. But I will never punish people for roleplaying or simply playing ALFA.

On a related note, do you believe that players should have the expectation of receiving gold and XP rewards whenever they are logged on? I have heard the argument that capping the RPXP script per RL time logged will "make people not log on." You seem to believe the same. Doesn't that assume that people are logging on primarily for the XP and not for the RP? I am interested in your thoughts on this.

I'm unsure what you mean by capping RP XP per RL time logged. It's already capped at 15 max RP XP per RL hour. I think that's rather fair, considering you can get 90xp from DMs for tavern RPing. Should people have the expectation? Perhaps not. But the system is there, and I have no plans on petitioning its removal.

How will all of these scripted systems you propose promote the style of story based RP that ALFA stands for? For example, under your "notification" system as I understand it, a player will be notified once they reach some predetermined level of XP gain per some set period of time. What is the objective level of XP gain that you determine to be indicative of abuse? Does the RP motivation for that gain matter? What about XP and wealth gain from DMd content? What will you do as PA if players hit the notification cap and then stop playing until the time clicker turns over again? Will you investigate those players for farming or powergaming? How will your systems prevent someone from logging on, farming to their heart's content without roleplay, then logging off when they receive the notification, wait a while, rinse, repeat, rinse repeat? Log in and roleplay for DMd events, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. Will you investigate/prosecute such patterns of gaming for rules violations? Or will you rely entirely upon your scripted system and deem anything that falls within the system to be "within the rules"?

I can't answer what sort of level is objectionable, as it would be rather irresponsible of me to. I would need to mine data, discuss with other admins, and petition what I believe to be fair. I can't and won't provide that level of detail, as I just don't have the information as a player that I would as an admin to make these decisions.

Make no mistake, the system is not meant to be a crutch, just a preventative measure. Anyone found doing what you described (logging out after they've farmed enough) would be punished. As an added benefit, with a properly written system, it would be very easy to detect the farming you insinuate, and hand out the punishments for it.

That leaves people logging in only to "farm" DM activity. Personally, I do not see a problem with this. While it makes me less interested in personally playing with "campaign style" groups like that who have no 'out of play' contact with the persistent world, I do not believe it to be punishable.

In terms of attracting new players and player retention, what are your thoughts on how level disparity effects attracting new players and player retention?

Being a low level sucks. About the only thing I can suggest there is the DM team helps people out with static content. It's not so bad being a lowbie on BG, for instance, if you can make friends. I don't think level disparity has a huge effect on player attraction or retention. High level characters give people a target (if they're so minded), and low level characters give new players adventuring buddies. Player activity is important, but I find level disparities to be far more important to DM events than player retention.

Finally, do you believe, philosophically, that we should trust our players to obey the rules and punish those players proven to have violated them, or do you believe that we should assume everyone will violate the rules if given the opportunity and use computers to seek to prevent all violations before they can happen. I think I know the answer but want to be certain.

I want to hope that we can trust our players, at least to be mature adults, than to be non-assholes. That said, I believe ignorance is both an abused defense and a legitimate concern, and informing and preventing players from violating the rules is possible, and should be pursued.

Sorry, a lot of questions I know, but it is an important post you are running for =D

I wish I could have spent more time answering these questions today, but I'm hoping to get them all done tonight, so I don't need to answer as any tomorrow (tomorrow being my birthday). Thank you for your questions, I hope I was able to answer them satisfactorily.

[FoamBats4All]

Now then. As far as my farming strike goes:

I completed a series of statics in a couple of hours. The statics were very easy, and I saw no posted rules that there was a time limit. As Dan pointed out, even I was surprised when I heard that someone (being mean, not that I knew he was talking about me) had earned so much XP in so little time.

I'm trying to prevent such abuse in the future, by pushing to have the rules presented in-game, and to prevent people from doing it. Perhaps there is concern that by having that strike, I will be more lenient. I only hope that people will see how I am trying to prevent it from happening, and not somehow derive that I am enabling more powergaming to happen.

While I believe that to some extent mine was a 'victimless crime' (the statics cannot be repeated, so it's not like I got a leg up on anyone else by completing them faster), it's one that I will continue to punish and prevent if elected. I did not envy Dan's job then, and do not envy the person that becomes the next PA, whoever they may be.

Thank you to everyone who asked questions. I'm unlikely to answer more tomorrow, but will try to get to any other questions later if there are any.

[Sidhe]

I note that allot of your responses deal with punishment and your system of preventing static abuse, however, you remain quite vague in other areas such as player retention and attracting/making the game more enjoyable for new/players.

1. What will you do to increase player retention?

2. What will you do to increase the overall satisfaction level of players in ALFA? (an issue you raised)

3. What will you do to attract fresh blood?

4. In reference to your system that will, hopefully, prevent static abuse etc; is this not a goal that is better suited to be implemented, with your help, under the tech team rather than the office of PA?

5. Following on from the above, considering you want to be PA, why are you more likely to join tech rather than become an AR if you are unsuccessful? (seeing as an AR is more closely aligned with the position of PA)

Thanks for running

[Ronan]

Because we are a roleplay server, not a grinding server. We award our players for roleplay. Our DMs do it. Our standards do it. Our builders do it.

Yes, and ALFA's always been this way, even before we had RP XP scripts. But we've also always rewarded for overcoming challenges - significantly more than rewards for roleplay, actually. While ALFA does promote roleplay it also uses D&D, which is heavily focused on adventuring. Obviously we more actively promote roleplay because grinding generally needs no promotion - people want to be uber.

Grinding can take many forms; orc-killing and RP XP included. It isn't grinding because it involves killing things, the killing is just a way to grind. In fact we've banned people for "farming" DMs; players who exploited the ease of travel in our condensed version of Faerun to purportedly join an absurd number of DMed games. The source of the XP isn't the deciding factor.

I would say a RP XP macro would be equivalent to an orc-farming bot, which is most definitely the worst sort of farming. Exactly how the XP is gained isn't relevant since the actions are totally OOC anyway.

RP XP is really a misleading name as it can easily reward for things which have little or nothing to do with roleplay. The current RP-XP scripts have some very obvious problems:

• They reward OOC communication such as tells.
• They don't reward quietly listening without spamy emotes.
• They reward someone speaking once every seven minutes the same as they do someone who has 100% of their attention focused on the game. The original one-game-hour interval was picked for performance reasons, not because anyone thought doing something every seven minutes was good RP (and so to me defending this interval looks like a likely example of status quo bias to me).
• They make no concessions for RP quality (admittedly subjective, but it was a feature everyone seemed to like about our NWN1 RP XP scripts, and hey our DM rewards tool has different RP settings).
• Though this is likely not a flaw, they reward solo RP as much as group RP.

Since RP XP is the largest source of XP in ALFA and the easiest to fix (as the ACR has 100% control over it), it would seem to me to be the lowest-hanging fruit on the Grinding Tree. If the RP XP scripts are altered to more accurately sift good RP from the bad, grindy, or mostly-AFK, that would seem like a win all around.

...and yes, I am volunteering to re-write the system in C#.