So what's your ideal fantasy setting for D&D / NWN / gaming?

[Xanthea]

And to carry on with this weird tangent.

Once you've broken the gods down into these abstract concepts it leaves so much room to do cool things by building them up again. Maybe once in a generation a powerful and devoted follower might catch a glimpse of their god at the moment of their greatest triumph.

Once you've established the concept of the gods being distant/abstract then it is so much more of a thrill when the blood soaked berserker is standing over a field of corpses with 1 hp left and sees a brief glimpse of Tempus grinning at him before it vanishes again. But you leave it vague enough that he can never prove it, or even 100% prove to himself that he actually saw it and it wasn't a hallucination from blood loss and failing adrenaline.

[Ithildur]

Sorry, I could never buy into a system where it turned out the war god of the orcs and the war god of the elves was the same dude. That'd be some staggeringly sad, stupid bunch of elves (since we all know orcs are already sad and stupid ) and both sides would commit mass suicide when they found out.

It might be an interesting take IF you were intentionally creating a world set along the lines of 'all religions are essentially meaningless and silly, there is no objective personhood/attributes of personal quality in this world other than that found in mortal creatures and their projections/imaginings'... which arguably is how a lot of DnD campaigns are functionally run anyway - even if gods exist in the world, players and DMs couldn't care less about them unless they are a source/reason to obtain gold and loot/provide a plot hook, i.e. less persons/characters and more convenient devices.

But that's a whole another discussion.

[Dorn]

As an alternative view to xantheas point below:

The elves conduct war one way. The orcs conduct war a very different way. Perhaps the elven word for war would even translate into english as something like "dance-against-the enemy-of-true-beauty" or something equally traipse-y, whereas the the translation of orc word for war would be "hurt-kill-all".

The differences are so very profound, that perhaps by calling them both 'war' we over simplify and make the mistake of assuming the prayers/portfolio/gods are potentially transferable in this theological wonderland we call FR.

Now if the god was a God of Violence. THAT could be one god with potentially racial aspects that appeal too those races worshippers sensibilities as it's almost elemental.

[Xanthea]

Sorry, I could never buy into a system where it turned out the war god of the orcs and the war god of the elves was the same dude. That'd be some staggeringly sad, stupid bunch of elves (since we all know orcs are already sad and stupid ) and both sides would commit mass suicide when they found out.

Are your elves and orcs that insecure?

Look at it like the Abrahamic religions. Sure maybe those other religions are technically worshiping the same god as you. But they're worshiping it wrong and are, furthermore, under some severe misconceptions about that god's fundamental nature.

[Zelknolf]

Look at it like the Abrahamic religions. Sure maybe those other religions are technically worshiping the same god as you. But they're worshiping it wrong and are, furthermore, under some severe misconceptions about that god's fundamental nature.

And those damn Greeks don't even know when Easter is!

Alternatively:
And those damn protestants don't recognize the divine inspiration of the Book of Tobit! Asmodeus is a real demon and you need to be worried about him!

Alternatively:
And those heathens baptize babies! Babies! How can they accept the Lord into their lives before they can even understand who He is!?

Alternatively:
How can those monsters understand divinity while enjoying alcohol and fast dancing!? We should correct their sinful ways. With axes.



... but yes, the real world is full of vitriolic arguments about religion, even inside of the religions. I pick on Christianity because it's an enormous influence on that literature that's "required reading" here in 'murica, and I'm supposed to have some kind of advanced degree in that, but it totally comes up in every faith.

Hell, if you go back to the first couple centuries of Christianity, you'll even find sects that insisted that their god wasn't the god of Abraham, because that guy was a jerk, and did horrible things like order his people to slaughter most of the natives of Canaan (all except the virgin girls [who were to be raped] and one prostitute), and their guy was about peace, love, and nonviolence.

[Ithildur]

The irony is that's one perspective on Abrahamic monotheistic religions, the one that's commonly thought in the West as the one really valid and sensible perspective, because after all, we in the West know and understand Middle Eastern religion better than anyone else, including Middle Easterners or practitioners of the respective religions themselves. It's a blindly arrogant assumption too often made by those who in theory ought to know better than anyone else their own limited and less than objective perspective, the 'learned' scholars/members of academia in higher education, and it trickles down to popular culture.

Anywho, nothing to do with elves or orcs being insecure or whatever, it's more to do with my view that elves and orcs in most fantasy genre/tropes are inherently, fundamentally and irreconcilably opposite, as different as fire and ice in substance as it were, not merely perception/history/etc. like rifts and conflicts between RL human nations/cultures/races/members of the same species. In other words, they are TOTALLY secure and clear in the understanding of who and what they are, and that's why they hate each other so deeply and fundamentally It's not the same thing as say, Arabs and Jews or Germans and Jews, whites and blacks who are all members of the same species, the same humanity; elves and orcs are so clearly and vastly opposite the other in most fantasy worlds that it would seem pretty incongruent that such beings could actually be paying homage to the same deity unless they both were deceived/deluded at a deep, deep level for centuries and millennia... which could be an interesting and unique twist certainly, but the author would have to be very clear that that is what's happening.

Certainly even Tolkien's 'orcs are irrevocably twisted, mangled versions of elves reflecting the worldview that evil is a twisted, mangled perversion of good' theme could be tweaked into 'maybe they're not so irrevocably/irredeemably twisted after all if they were at one time elves', and some of his unpublished writings supposedly reflect he experimented with that idea. But I would argue that to make a coherent, satisfying world/meta narrative, at some level the creator of the world needs to decide 'elves and orcs in this world might be worshipping the same god of war because xyz' or 'elves and orcs could potentially be reconciled in this world like elves and drow because xyz' where xyz is a somewhat plausible and coherent, definitely intentional departure from most 'classic' takes on these guys.

At least do more justice to such elements than Greenwood and co. apparently did with various parts of FR theology where it makes you wonder what they were thinking at times, and lead to discussions where people go 'yeah I like lots of stuff about FR but the gods sometimes make me chuckle or cause my head to explode'

[Zelknolf]

The irony is that's one perspective on Abrahamic monotheistic religions, the one that's commonly thought in the West as the one really valid and sensible perspective, because after all, we in the West know and understand Middle Eastern religion better than anyone else, including Middle Easterners or practitioners of the respective religions themselves. It's a blindly arrogant assumption too often made by those who in theory ought to know better than anyone else their own limited and less than objective perspective, the 'learned' scholars/members of academia in higher education, and it trickles down to popular culture.

My specialty exists because there is a 'canon' of Western literature that all scholars in the humanities in 'murica must be proficient in if they wish to be employed. I-- and most people in my field-- are fully aware of how crazy the canon is, and how we read some really shitty authors in our jingoism (Hawthorne comes to mind) or because of lack of other sources in the timeframe (like Beowulf). That doesn't change society's expectations of schools, and so we all still have to learn, and things like the literary and philosophical influences of.. say.. Zoroaster (also far-reaching and historically significant) have to be packed into those optional weird specialty classes.

I set that in this bucket of tidbits labeled "Zelknolf left academia to work on medical software." But it also means I a lot of knowledge in the area.

[Xanthea]

Anywho, nothing to do with elves or orcs being insecure or whatever, it's more to do with my view that elves and orcs in most fantasy genre/tropes are inherently, fundamentally and irreconcilably opposite, as different as fire and ice in substance as it were, not merely perception/history/etc. like rifts and conflicts between RL human nations/cultures/races/members of the same species. In other words, they are TOTALLY secure and clear in the understanding of who and what they are, and that's why they hate each other so deeply and fundamentally It's not the same thing as say, Arabs and Jews or Germans and Jews, whites and blacks who are all members of the same species, the same humanity; elves and orcs are so clearly and vastly opposite the other in most fantasy worlds that it would seem pretty incongruent that such beings could actually be paying homage to the same deity unless they both were deceived/deluded at a deep, deep level for centuries and millennia...

I think you're falling into the trap of thinking of it from the perspective of FR. As in, the gods are basically just people with a lot of extra powers.

This isn't nearly as much of an issue if you see the gods as embodying one specific concept instead. In FR, Tempus is a god of war. That means he's a powerful guy that likes war and empowers people to fight wars. In this other setting it would be a mistake to think of the god of war in that vein. This god IS war, in all its aspects. In this setting it's an open question if the gods are even sentient at all, or if their priests are just drawing power from a metaphysical concept that they've attached a personality and backstory to.

[Ithildur]

That's fine Xan, though it's not a FR specific 'trap', it's pretty standard at least in most DnD gameworlds (greyhawk, Mystara, FR, Dragonlance, even Ebberon where there are some distinct departures from the standard approach to gods/faiths) that gods are beings with personalities/personhood, as opposed to concepts/non sentient entities etc. My point (made jokingly) is simply that if you set up a world where they are non sentient concepts, a distinct brand of elves/orcs, etc. that's great, but it's a major distinction/departure from the usual fare and needs to be intentionally fleshed out so that it's fairly clear (to the GM/author at least, not necessarily to players/reader) it's a whole different deal from the ground up, vs. say FR-ish elves and orcs suddenly finding out that Grummsh and Corellon are the same dude/thing, which is rather incongruent (though that never bothered WOTC/TSR) with established canon and the usual fantasy/DnD 'norms' for elves/orcs.

The corellon/grummsh/elves/orcs thing has a lot of impact imo because it's been around across various editions and consistent even across various settings/worlds and well, it's elves and orcs, probably two of the most iconic 'good guy non human/bad guy non human' types in the fantasy genre; subverting the norm in this specific case/manner I think has the potential to be very effective in establishing a note that 'This fantasy world is different' - if it's intentionally and thoughtfully done.

[kid]

In this setting it's an open question if the gods are even sentient at all, or if their priests are just drawing power from a metaphysical concept that they've attached a personality and backstory to.

Yes, when I do gods that's how I do 'em.

Though most religious bastards (in my games) would of course claim them to be sentient. (Angry, vengeful, merciful, you know, the same crap they feed us in our religions).

[SCI-kick]

That's why I included Crom in my list of deities . . . Represents basic personal strength, and those who survive. "I admire it's purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality." (whoever guesses the movie that quote is from, gets a beer).

Oh yeah, don't pray to Crom . . . He doesn't listen, or punishes you for being such a weakling that you have to pray at him. Crom seems to like when you say to him "to HELL with YOU!"

Another concept I was always fascinated with is H.P. Lovecraft's mythos . . . Not really sure about who or what it is . . . But, it's ancient and beyond comprehension, and to understand what it is, is to enter a hellish insanity beyond reasoning.

LOL