A question directed somewhat-generally to the player base here--
I have been listening to the various complaints and comments about static content here; it's dull/ repetetive/ not challenging/ whatever. These aren't new comments, to be sure, but there are decidedly more of them than people saying that static content is "too hard" (except for a few quests that violate players' basic assumptions-- you'll not find a beaver skin hat on BG, for instance, but there sure is a quest on BG to find one, and that quest sits among a couple dozen generic "search and buy" type quests which are solved by walking to a neighboring town on the same server and rummaging through the shops).
Now to the part that I find confusing-- the answer to these complaints was indeed the addition or more content, some of it even extremely public, but new content seems to be content which is largely not being done. The previous link, for instance, describes in detail the construction of a quest that can be soloed by a level 1 and is the best XP that a level 1 can get without latching onto a highbie and getting keelhauled on the XP boat, but that quest has been done once, ever-- by me, when I tested it when it was finished. Instead, people seem to be just carrying mail, picking mushrooms, and skinning random animals.
So I'm left curious as to where this incongruity is coming from. Are people not looking for new content any more? Are they looking for it and not finding it? Do we not know where to find the stuff that's level appropriate and/or not know how to get around? Would people really rather just drag 10 lbs of XP down the road and walk back?
I really don't want to embark on more content-creation tasks if it's not going to get used. It's zero benefit to everyone else and thus the work put into it is effectively wasted.
Static Content
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
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orangetree
- Dungeon Master
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Re: Static Content
I'm going to go on a limb here and offer my view. It's just my own view and I could be wrong.
1) its not worth loosing a character on static quests. I am under the impression that the vast majority of static content will kill most PCs, unless they have a high level friend- even then, the reward tends to not be worth the trouble, especially after splitting it. (and the high level PC inevitably gets 90% of it)
2) People know what to expect on older content - its tried and tested. Therefore less chance to lose a character. It's boring and a chore, but there is gain.
3) there is little information on what new content would entail until experienced. It's also hard to find, and if you even find it, its even harder to group up and do it.
I see it as a risk vs reward issue, especially for european players that tend to be adventuring solo.
If the gains were something substantial, like a magic ring, or cloak, or shield instead of gold, (or entry to secret areas?) that might be of more interest.
1) its not worth loosing a character on static quests. I am under the impression that the vast majority of static content will kill most PCs, unless they have a high level friend- even then, the reward tends to not be worth the trouble, especially after splitting it. (and the high level PC inevitably gets 90% of it)
2) People know what to expect on older content - its tried and tested. Therefore less chance to lose a character. It's boring and a chore, but there is gain.
3) there is little information on what new content would entail until experienced. It's also hard to find, and if you even find it, its even harder to group up and do it.
I see it as a risk vs reward issue, especially for european players that tend to be adventuring solo.
If the gains were something substantial, like a magic ring, or cloak, or shield instead of gold, (or entry to secret areas?) that might be of more interest.
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Witchdoctor
- Gelatinous Cube
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:44 pm
Re: Static Content
while I haven't gone looking for the centipede quest, I have done the beryl quest, granted that one runs right up on a pc. it was a lot of fun and I enjoy the new content I have experienced. I don't understand people crying about the lack of content (the reason alfa drew me too it was the dm adventures) no static is going to compare with that. want to add flavor to a server when dms are not on sure I get that. even enjoy a few in the off hours. You are appreciated for the work you do keeping things going. Not going to belly ache about what alfa does not have when you and the other tech folks have created what exists now. take a bow and know that there are people who appreciate what has been achieved already.
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oldgrayrogue
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Re: Static Content
New static content is great. More lethal content is great too, but only if the reward matches the risk. If the reward does not match the risk people will avoid the content until it is survivable. My personal experience with the recent static content changes made to BG, with a few exceptions, is that it is not survivable at low levels, especially if attempted solo. In addition, with the exception of increased rewards for certain herb varieties (which is mostly riskless static content), the rewards have been decreased. When this is coupled with the fact that long standing statics have been made more deadly, it is natural for people to avoid them and any other new statics they might find for fear of losing their PC.
I'll give a few examples. The static goblins in the cloakwood hills now spawn in groups of three all of which throw darts at any PC they spot. In the first round a PC will get hit with three attacks usually at a +3, +5 and +6 AB from a supposedly low level spawn. I recently discovered that even bunnies on BG now attack (rather than run away as in the past) at +4 AB! Imagine some poor mage hunting for his supper pwnd by a bunny! Mortifying! With the goblins, if the new PC is anything but a heavy armor wearer they are quickly "near death" in HP within one or two rounds from multiple attacks. If the PC manages to slay said goblins, usually only one will spawn any loot and that loot spawn usually consists of 1-3 GP and a dozen or so darts that are worthless. Even at level 1 a dead goblin (even when attacking in a group of three) yields an average of 3-4 XP. A player quickly surmises that these new encounters are pointless to pursue, as there is too much risk for the nonexistent reward. ICly the PC avoids the deadly areas. Another example is a well known scouting quest in Nashkel I encountered. The entrance to the quest completion area is behind a waterfall. However, the walkmesh has been changed so that now the only way to access the entrance is by a long swim. The quest used to be about stealth. Now it is about a long swim check. Too dangerous to attempt for the meager reward. The lethality of other statics has also been increased. A recent attempt at a static in a cave that in the past was completable solo left my PC almost dead and poisoned when he was ganked near an AT by multiple beetles and spiders requiring a 150 GP lesser restoration expenditure, making the aborted quest a total loss. When players see these changes they naturally begin to avoid the content and gravitate toward "riskless" behavior. In my opinion that would not necessarily be the case if the static content offered greater rewards to coincide with the enhanced risk. Personally, as a player I take a lot of risks if the rewards are commensurate. To me that makes good IC sense to an adventurer. Risking one's life for nothing -- or for repeated losses -- is stupid.
Another reason I think people are avoiding the new content is that because of low player numbers we are often forced to play solo. Low player density in general may be a reason why few folks have tried the new quests. I log on to BG almost daily during "prime time" US times and am often the only player on -- unless you are logged on. The new content simply cannot be completed solo with few exceptions (unless you play a heavy armor caster then maybe you could). Finally, its fairly well known, I think, that many changes to areas were made out of concerns about supposed farming of static content and to deter such conduct. I myself was warned by the HDM of BG not to "abuse the AI" by conduct that I did not believe was abuse when I did it. When these types of changes are made and warnings are given, and it gets talked about among the player base, I think it has a chilling effect on static game play. I don't believe that most players want to abuse content or break rules, so they play it "safe rather than sorry." I know that is what has happened with me since I received the "warning."
On the positive side Zelk, your new "Welcome to BG" quest is totally awesome. I have played that quest with each of the three PC's I've started on BG recently (two died rather quickly) and enjoyed it immensely. I have not had the chance to complete the centipede quest yet, but I am really looking forward to it. First, I didn't know where it was until recently, and second I often find myself just logging off because encounters leave my PC depleted of healing, HP and other resources and simply unable to do even easy quests alone. If there were other players to join up with I certainly would. While your PC Persephone is often on, and I have always enjoyed RP with you, I don't like being "keelhauled" as you say. Its just not fun game for me.
All that being said, I don't want anyone -- especially SF who has worked so hard on these changes -- to take this as a rant or list of complaints. These are observations and my personal opinions about some of the changes recently made and how it may be contributing to the lack of player participation, or a perceived lack of interest, in the new content. I think changes to content are excellent and needed, but the content has to be able to be completed, especially by new PCs, or the meat grinder will just make folks avoid it. If a few tweaks are made, especially increased rewards for increased risk, then I think more people would try out the new content. Please keep making new content and changes. I for one greatly appreciate it and hope these comments help in determining the type of content and changes to focus on. One overarching comment would be to focus new content and changes on quests and spawns that can be completed solo, as a lack of player density makes group play difficult to come by lately without a scheduled DM slot. The existing content mostly requires a group already for many of the more challenging quests.
I'll give a few examples. The static goblins in the cloakwood hills now spawn in groups of three all of which throw darts at any PC they spot. In the first round a PC will get hit with three attacks usually at a +3, +5 and +6 AB from a supposedly low level spawn. I recently discovered that even bunnies on BG now attack (rather than run away as in the past) at +4 AB! Imagine some poor mage hunting for his supper pwnd by a bunny! Mortifying! With the goblins, if the new PC is anything but a heavy armor wearer they are quickly "near death" in HP within one or two rounds from multiple attacks. If the PC manages to slay said goblins, usually only one will spawn any loot and that loot spawn usually consists of 1-3 GP and a dozen or so darts that are worthless. Even at level 1 a dead goblin (even when attacking in a group of three) yields an average of 3-4 XP. A player quickly surmises that these new encounters are pointless to pursue, as there is too much risk for the nonexistent reward. ICly the PC avoids the deadly areas. Another example is a well known scouting quest in Nashkel I encountered. The entrance to the quest completion area is behind a waterfall. However, the walkmesh has been changed so that now the only way to access the entrance is by a long swim. The quest used to be about stealth. Now it is about a long swim check. Too dangerous to attempt for the meager reward. The lethality of other statics has also been increased. A recent attempt at a static in a cave that in the past was completable solo left my PC almost dead and poisoned when he was ganked near an AT by multiple beetles and spiders requiring a 150 GP lesser restoration expenditure, making the aborted quest a total loss. When players see these changes they naturally begin to avoid the content and gravitate toward "riskless" behavior. In my opinion that would not necessarily be the case if the static content offered greater rewards to coincide with the enhanced risk. Personally, as a player I take a lot of risks if the rewards are commensurate. To me that makes good IC sense to an adventurer. Risking one's life for nothing -- or for repeated losses -- is stupid.
Another reason I think people are avoiding the new content is that because of low player numbers we are often forced to play solo. Low player density in general may be a reason why few folks have tried the new quests. I log on to BG almost daily during "prime time" US times and am often the only player on -- unless you are logged on. The new content simply cannot be completed solo with few exceptions (unless you play a heavy armor caster then maybe you could). Finally, its fairly well known, I think, that many changes to areas were made out of concerns about supposed farming of static content and to deter such conduct. I myself was warned by the HDM of BG not to "abuse the AI" by conduct that I did not believe was abuse when I did it. When these types of changes are made and warnings are given, and it gets talked about among the player base, I think it has a chilling effect on static game play. I don't believe that most players want to abuse content or break rules, so they play it "safe rather than sorry." I know that is what has happened with me since I received the "warning."
On the positive side Zelk, your new "Welcome to BG" quest is totally awesome. I have played that quest with each of the three PC's I've started on BG recently (two died rather quickly) and enjoyed it immensely. I have not had the chance to complete the centipede quest yet, but I am really looking forward to it. First, I didn't know where it was until recently, and second I often find myself just logging off because encounters leave my PC depleted of healing, HP and other resources and simply unable to do even easy quests alone. If there were other players to join up with I certainly would. While your PC Persephone is often on, and I have always enjoyed RP with you, I don't like being "keelhauled" as you say. Its just not fun game for me.
All that being said, I don't want anyone -- especially SF who has worked so hard on these changes -- to take this as a rant or list of complaints. These are observations and my personal opinions about some of the changes recently made and how it may be contributing to the lack of player participation, or a perceived lack of interest, in the new content. I think changes to content are excellent and needed, but the content has to be able to be completed, especially by new PCs, or the meat grinder will just make folks avoid it. If a few tweaks are made, especially increased rewards for increased risk, then I think more people would try out the new content. Please keep making new content and changes. I for one greatly appreciate it and hope these comments help in determining the type of content and changes to focus on. One overarching comment would be to focus new content and changes on quests and spawns that can be completed solo, as a lack of player density makes group play difficult to come by lately without a scheduled DM slot. The existing content mostly requires a group already for many of the more challenging quests.
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oldgrayrogue
- Retired
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Re: Static Content
OT said it much better and more succinctly than I did. +1
Re: Static Content
OT:
If I could ask for a little more information on that first point-- can you pinpoint a specific source of the impression that most static content will kill most PCs?
I can certainly cede that more PCs die to static content than to DMed content, and there's certainly a degree to which we want there to be some caution to taking on content (after all, it tends to involve potentially-fatal risks-- more likely to just force you to run away, but it sure can kill you), though "most content killing most PCs" sounds like ALFA is understood to be a good deal more dangerous than it is.
Could also use suggestions for "getting the word out" as it were-- ideally in ways that are reasonably in character ("hardcore RP" does tend to preclude the sort of "quest list by CR, marked by shiny overhead icons on quest-granting PCs" that one might see in, say, DDO). I haven't looked closely at how many people do the BG intro quest, though the first NPC on that arc is quite tenacious, if people like that sort of thing.
Witch:
Thanks for the kind words-- and I don't want to sound like I'm sulking and looking for pity. I'll give that first post another read if I'm coming off that way. There's a little frustration in there, in the "This is what I thought you guys asked for and it's not working! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻" sort of way, but that's life. I'm mostly left with the impression that others understand ALFA's content and/or what ALFA offers in ways far enough different from what I understand of it that it's making my efforts to expand/improve the content ineffective. The basic assertion being that a feature that no one can use isn't a feature at all.
Hopefully I would be able to just stir up some information and find out what helps get people into the novel and/or appropriate content, and thus into enjoying more of what ALFA offers.
OGR: I have to flee right now, because work. I will return later and read it all.
If I could ask for a little more information on that first point-- can you pinpoint a specific source of the impression that most static content will kill most PCs?
I can certainly cede that more PCs die to static content than to DMed content, and there's certainly a degree to which we want there to be some caution to taking on content (after all, it tends to involve potentially-fatal risks-- more likely to just force you to run away, but it sure can kill you), though "most content killing most PCs" sounds like ALFA is understood to be a good deal more dangerous than it is.
Could also use suggestions for "getting the word out" as it were-- ideally in ways that are reasonably in character ("hardcore RP" does tend to preclude the sort of "quest list by CR, marked by shiny overhead icons on quest-granting PCs" that one might see in, say, DDO). I haven't looked closely at how many people do the BG intro quest, though the first NPC on that arc is quite tenacious, if people like that sort of thing.
Witch:
Thanks for the kind words-- and I don't want to sound like I'm sulking and looking for pity. I'll give that first post another read if I'm coming off that way. There's a little frustration in there, in the "This is what I thought you guys asked for and it's not working! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻" sort of way, but that's life. I'm mostly left with the impression that others understand ALFA's content and/or what ALFA offers in ways far enough different from what I understand of it that it's making my efforts to expand/improve the content ineffective. The basic assertion being that a feature that no one can use isn't a feature at all.
Hopefully I would be able to just stir up some information and find out what helps get people into the novel and/or appropriate content, and thus into enjoying more of what ALFA offers.
OGR: I have to flee right now, because work. I will return later and read it all.
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dergon darkhelm
- Fionn In Disguise
- Posts: 4258
- Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:21 pm
- Location: Cleveland, Ohio, United States
Re: Static Content
Personally -- and it's just me -
I only will go out to seek new content if I have a group of other players to go with.
ALFA has too much potential for being lethal to a solo PC, especially in areas known to be dangerous. Add in the unknowns of the builder (Was he thinking he was going to make his homage to Tomb of Horrors and put deadly traps and death gazes around every corner? Did he decide to build new uber monsters with discrepant naming so that the "Orc with axe" has 7 levels of fighter and a +14 AB? ... and there are 10 of them? )
If I can get a group together, with players I know and PCs that seem survivable then yeah, I'll give some new stuff a shot. But for now I'm on alone most of the time and not willing to risk it.
I only will go out to seek new content if I have a group of other players to go with.
ALFA has too much potential for being lethal to a solo PC, especially in areas known to be dangerous. Add in the unknowns of the builder (Was he thinking he was going to make his homage to Tomb of Horrors and put deadly traps and death gazes around every corner? Did he decide to build new uber monsters with discrepant naming so that the "Orc with axe" has 7 levels of fighter and a +14 AB? ... and there are 10 of them? )
If I can get a group together, with players I know and PCs that seem survivable then yeah, I'll give some new stuff a shot. But for now I'm on alone most of the time and not willing to risk it.
PCs: NWN1: Trailyn "Wayfarer" Krast, Nashkel hayseed
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
Re: Static Content
General consensus seems to be - Solo static = danger, and i'm risk adverse (chicken).
Answer = Organize (flock up) a bit better, and enjoy!
Answer = Organize (flock up) a bit better, and enjoy!
12.August.2015: Never forget.
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Darkmystic
- Owlbear
- Posts: 592
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:45 pm
Re: Static Content
The quests are uninspiring, dull, insanely lethal and the rewards are pathetic incomparison to the risk. Not a single quest gives magical gear from what I know. Not even a small +1 to any skill ring.
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dergon darkhelm
- Fionn In Disguise
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- Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:21 pm
- Location: Cleveland, Ohio, United States
Re: Static Content
Unfortunately the days of "just group up" are over. 90% of my time is spent in game either alone or with OT who (no offense) intentionally plays PCs who by the nature of their build presence is even more likely to get me dead by having to run in and bail out her AC12, 14hp bard or whatever.
It's catching lightning in a bottle to find a few players on euro-times with survivable PCs who are interested in adventuring.
That's just the nature of our shrinking community.
It's catching lightning in a bottle to find a few players on euro-times with survivable PCs who are interested in adventuring.
That's just the nature of our shrinking community.
PCs: NWN1: Trailyn "Wayfarer" Krast, Nashkel hayseed
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
Re: Static Content
Yeah, casual players are much less likely to bump into each other, but i'd bet that a post on BG forum about grouping up to do X would attract players.
12.August.2015: Never forget.
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orangetree
- Dungeon Master
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- Location: UK (GMT)
Re: Static Content
It really is just a 'general impression'.Zelknolf wrote:OT:
If I could ask for a little more information on that first point-- can you pinpoint a specific source of the impression that most static content will kill most PCs?
I guess one specific example comes to mind, when I was introduced to a quest by a 'helpful high level char'. It was asking to go into the underdark for a reward of about 100 coins. It just didn't seem worth it, even with help.
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orangetree
- Dungeon Master
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Re: Static Content
dergon darkhelm wrote:Unfortunately the days of "just group up" are over. 90% of my time is spent in game either alone or with OT who (no offense) intentionally plays PCs who by the nature of their build presence is even more likely to get me dead by having to run in and bail out her AC12, 14hp bard or whatever.
It's catching lightning in a bottle to find a few players on euro-times with survivable PCs who are interested in adventuring.
That's just the nature of our shrinking community.
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oldgrayrogue
- Retired
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Re: Static Content
Based on my discussions with SF part of the intent of the changes on BG is to return a PW style of play which I am in favor of. It is no longer easy to group up and play in ALFA without a DM even with posts. Players need to log in more. The changes will help but the risk reward issue has to be addressed. And its not about being chicken. My PCs keep dying lately because I actually go out and play the content even when no one else is on. Most of it is just not survivable without a group unless you confine yourself to delivery and collection quests.
Re: Static Content
Intro to BG quest (Byrel(sp?)) was very fun, till I somehow got stuck after Beregost (ran around for an hour... found nothing)
kinda had a silly feeling that doing a lv 1 static with my lv5 if unfair, so didn't take my dude to kill bugs.
felt a bit OOC after I learned about it in forums. But if my dude gets to the spires and talk to people he'll do it, for sure.
(And yeah, everybody else is also correct, other than OTs thing about highlevels taking 90% of the loot, wut? what mean high levels have you been hanging around with?)
kinda had a silly feeling that doing a lv 1 static with my lv5 if unfair, so didn't take my dude to kill bugs.
felt a bit OOC after I learned about it in forums. But if my dude gets to the spires and talk to people he'll do it, for sure.
(And yeah, everybody else is also correct, other than OTs thing about highlevels taking 90% of the loot, wut? what mean high levels have you been hanging around with?)
<paazin>: internet relationships are really a great idea