24 Hour Cool Down between Servers

[Mikayla]

As WW2 said, the discussion regarding inter-server travel is as old as the concept that ALFA would have multiple servers. We had to move mountains to get the first inter-server campaign going in ALFA, and even then, there were servers that just said "no, you can't play here" (like Shadowdale). So, we only hit 5 of ALFAs (then) 7 or 8 live servers.

ALFA is evolving. Always has been. The question then is how to balance the perceived necessity for change versus the core ideas that ALFA is founded on (the pillars were an expression of that foundation). As we've seen, even the pillars can fall (and so be it), so evolution is alive and well. But how far should ALFA evolve from its roots? When do we say "thats far enough" in an effort to preserve what ALFA is about.

I cannot say I firmly support the 24-hour delay rule. I cannot say I want to see it abolished. To me it is a tool, nothing more. What I can say is that under no circumstances should a member have two PCs in play on the same server at the same time. The potential for abuse is much too high.

I say this from my experience as a PA for 2+ years. Over that time, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the cases investigated for sanction involved multiple PC use (usually for muling) and that was during a time when ALFA did not allow multiple PCs. Now that we do allow such, the potential for abuse is even higher because simply having two PCs is permitted - allowing those two PCs to be in the same place, close in time, is a bad idea. So, to the extent people want to allow multiple PCs per member on one server, I strongly say "no" for what is worth.

As for travel, and just travel, most of us have very limited time to play. On the other hand, most of us want an immersive RP environment. A rule that balances both is in order, unfortunately, I do not have the wisdom necessary to devise something better than the 24-hour rule (which, as Swift points out, does not actually prevent people from logging in to play - it just prevents them from logging in to play where they want to at that particular moment with no delay. So, though I don't think the 24-hour rule is perfect, I would rather have it than no rule at all. While I am eagerly open to other options, I cannot think of a good one myself.

But, I very much believe we must prevent people from having 2 PCs on the same server at basically the same time. I also truly believe that we should never allow people to play on a server where they DM - travel across it to get to another server? Sure. But actually play there? No way.

M.

[Castano]

I will never support 2 PCs on the same server at the same time absent the tiny exception for DM supervised play that we put in due to ongoing plots. and let's be clear DM supervision means being DM'd, not getting a DM to say yes and let you wander around DM-less. That's also not what this discussion is about, though I note it was brought up up-thread.

We have validation by DMs in case your server went down, we also revalidate players back onto their old server when it goes back up. Use the tools we have. Talk about automating the home-ward validation of PCs that moved due to down servers is healthy and something tech may wish to explore if they feel like it/have resources as it removes a burden on our DMs to pop on to revalidate players back onto their original server.

As for the concept that if we make a change we'll get whining, that's not a constructive argument, it's an argument to never make any changes here and let ALFA atrophy into a 5 active player world.

[danielmn]

As for the concept that if we make a change we'll get whining, that's not a constructive argument, it's an argument to never make any changes here and let ALFA atrophy into a 5 active player world.

You could make the counterarguement that by changing and changing and changing, you will also be left with a 5 player world. You see change as ADDING players. This is not always necessarily the case.

[oldgrayrogue]

Let me be clear about what I took issue with.

I started a new second PC on TSM (I have retired as a TSM DM and waited the requisite 30 days). TSM went down and DD was asking me to come play with him on WHL in Adanu's new campaign. I logged in and Adanu validated me. I was in the middle of some stuff in the meantime on TSM, but I had time to play so took advantage of it on WHL and was glad I did. At the end of a session with Adanu I asked him if he had any issue with my PC traveling to TSM to tie up some loose ends. I also wanted to use the customizer on TSM, as WHL does not have one. OOC yes, but to me justified given the lack of a customizer on WHL. Adanu said he had no issues. I then looked into how my PC could make that trip. I have my main character on BG and hence believed that I could not get to TSM via BG. I have sinced learned (after scouring forums for this info to no avail) that apparently there is a rule that says you can "pass through" your home server for travel only with HDM consent. I PMd Paazin asking him if he was cool with it, but did not hear back from him. DD then logged on and told me there was portal to MS on WHL that I could use to get to TSM. His PC graciously walked with mine there ICly -- fun had by all -- and then my PC boarded a boat for MS with a fond fare thee well.

This boat leaves you at the Waterdeep Docks map. This is like a "placeholder" map. There is nothing to do here and as far as I know no one logs in to play in this area. It is just a place that is a stop off point between travels. So my PC disembarks at the Docks and jumps right on the boat to TSM. A scripted message comes up saying something like if you have travelled in last 24 hours you could get stuck on the boat. I assumed that meant traveled from TSM, which I hadn't. I board. I click the portal to go to TSM. I get a scripted message that says I have to wait 24 RL hours before I can portal. This waiting period, which is essentially a 24 hour layover on either a 1) empty place holder map or 2) the inside of a boat needs to be changed in my view. Contrary to Swift's comment, it does prevent you from playing, unless your idea of playing is logging in to play with yourself inside of a boat or on a deserted docks. I personally think there is no valid reason for such a rule or cool down period. My suggestions to fix it are either 1) Do away with the cool down for "stopover" travel such as this whether through MS or BG or 2) Have a direct link by ship available between all servers.

I would note that changing this presently scripted "cool down" period does not prevent those who want to RP a long and arduous boat journey as a group of "ducklings" or what have you from doing so. We can all sit in the bowels of the ship and RP puking our guts up and getting to know each other better or mutiny or whatever if we want to. That could indeed be fun. But that was not the IC journey my PC was making. By boarding the ship, however, and apparently misunderstanding the warning I am now stuck on the ship for 24 hours. If i had understood and heeded the warning I would be stuck alone on the placeholder Waterdeep docks map. Not a big difference. A scripted forced 24 hour layover sucks. Ask any business traveler. There isn't even an airport bar to get drunk in. My PC didn't have his Ipad either. Can you say boring?

This is all new to me, I obviously have not done alot of cross server travel in my years in ALFA. I made the post because as I was sitting in front of my computer last night stuck on the boat, knowing that I probably have some time to play tonight as well (and time to play games, for some of us, is a very limited commodity) I thought that this rule was really stupid and should be changed.

For the record, I really don't have a problem with the 24 hour rule overall. I think it is unneccessary, but does avoid unpleasantness for DMs who might have to confront that player who happens to hit every server in a week on a regular basis. As to playing where you DM or where you have another PC, while I think the fear of meta is overblown, I see these rules as necessary to prevent ARs and the PA from having nervous breakdowns -- not because there will be more meta or abuse but because there will be more complaints of perceived meta and abuse that they will be duty bound to investigate.

So bottom line, change the rule as currently implemented, it is stupid.

[Curmudgeon]

OGR, this sounds to me like a problem with the way the portals are configured, as there was no design intent AFAIK to make the WHL -> MS -> TSM trip subject to the 24-hour cooldown. IIRC, it took some tweaking over several days to get portals configured properly when we last added a server.

Perhaps a competent member of the Tech Staff could check the relevant variables on the Portals?

Have you filed a Support Ticket on this?

[Zelknolf]

The server portals are functioning properly in that regard. MS is not adjacent to WHL and MS is not adjacent to TSM. A character who makes that trip is supposed to, by the current design, have that cooldown.

I would think that the most-plausible solution would be to get a TSM <-> WHL portal set up or to make sure that everyone knows to go through BG and not MS.

[FoamBats4All]

Whiners gonna whine. Ignore that kid Maxcell and ask for a DM to validate you, OGR. Happy playing.

---

Anyway, Zelknolf's right. The solution is just to have a the correct portals on servers. The cooldown is the rule, and it makes sense in its current context. We have no way of our scripts knowing if the player is OOC traveling through the server, or ICly doing so. So, builders just need to make portals. Not that difficult.

[Xanthea]

... a few times I have, at least; 98% of the time I prefer to exercise self control and am completely happy with how ALFA works and why. I'm here for ALFA, for hardcore RP, not for BGTSC or whatever else is out there.

What are you yackin' about?

Take, for example, that Underdark thing on MS. After hearing about hapless drow prisoners I did what I think was the IC thing and used magic to bypass the ten day trip there because leaving them enslaved by the drow for another ten days seems like a bad thing to be doing. I'm completely confident that if I hadn't used the magic and just took the boat instead nothing bad would have happened because of it. I was also somewhat unamused to have the person that I left nine days behind on the island turn up for the event anyway and get told by the DMs that he "followed" us.

Or take something that happened shortly after that. Some guy died during the festival, the rest of the party went rocketing off across the world to fetch a diamond and were back in time for the next day of the festival.

I've had multiple respectable DMs telling me that representing distances between areas is dumb and that they just use IG distances. ALFA has NPCs that warn you not to travel the roads (of multiple day journeys) at night.

The point, as related to this topic, is that like it or hate it, ALFA currently does not care too much about IC distances and pretending there's a difference between people speeding around between servers and people speeding around between far away areas on the same server is silly. ALFA should either make an all around effort to take time more seriously in general, or there should stop being a double standard for cross-server travel.

[Swift]

The point, as related to this topic, is that like it or hate it, ALFA currently does not care too much about IC distances and pretending there's a difference between people speeding around between servers and people speeding around between far away areas on the same server is silly. ALFA should either make an all around effort to take time more seriously in general, or there should stop being a double standard for cross-server travel.

Strangely enough, this is the only part of your post that doesn't sound silly to me.

The rest makes me cringe and wonder when we lowered our standards for DMs.

[Adanu]

Don't look at me. I take my time seriously.

[oldgrayrogue]

OGR, this sounds to me like a problem with the way the portals are configured, as there was no design intent AFAIK to make the WHL -> MS -> TSM trip subject to the 24-hour cooldown. IIRC, it took some tweaking over several days to get portals configured properly when we last added a server.

Perhaps a competent member of the Tech Staff could check the relevant variables on the Portals?

Have you filed a Support Ticket on this?

Didn't file a ticket bc did not know if it was operating as intended. Thanks for the reply Curm and the clarification Zelk. Anyway, players be aware and please consider changing current situation.

[Castano]

Xan it sounds to me like you may be confusing comic book time and time within a plot.

Generally I try to keep a plot's timeline consistent and not entwined with any other plot a DM may be running.

For example we had a whole pile of people held captive the week before Greengrass. If they had not escaped our options were to use linear time and have half of ALFA not attend a planned event - or - we could say the entire adventure to drow-land occurred well after Greengrass, thus allowing these PC to attend, then ship off to drow-land and remain captive forever.

We have to fudge lots of things, like the fact snow is on the ground 365 in some of our areas...

The 24 hr cool down for MS has always been there for every server. Even BG is not deemed adjacent to us, even though getting to MS from BG is faster ICly than walking to Soubar or Nashkell from BG.

Anyways when things get a little less busy I will raise our travel issues in admin forum and see if we cannot cook up a better system, until then validate players as you please, unless they are riding a circuit of DM events.

[Ithildur]

The rest makes me cringe and wonder when we lowered our standards for DMs.

stuff

With regards to this issue, I don't mind so much if our standards for DMs have slipped; I don't think anyone has problems if DMs rule/adjudicate around time issues to advance or facilitate their sessions (though overdoing stuff like comic book time has tremendous drawbacks and I'd strongly object to someone 'teleporting' a PC 500 miles without ANY IC explanation).

That's an entirely different issue than proposing getting rid of time restrictions sans DM like the 24 hour rule. If someone doesn't understand this by now, they need to be clued in: ALFA DMs are given a lot of power to bend or even break certain rules in the interest of furthering the story (not breaking the story just to get more players in on xp and lootz), especially rules that are in place to prevent abuse or breaking character when a DM isn't around. This does not mean we lightly regard such rules as silly or things to be ignored when a DM isn't around.

I was also somewhat unamused to have the person that I left nine days behind on the island turn up for the event anyway and get told by the DMs that he "followed" us.

I was unaware of this happening as I wasn't handling the rescue party's travel side of things during that session; sounds like another DM hand-waived the other PC showing up. I might have objected if I weren't focused on other parts of the session *shrug* but to be honest for that session I made several concessions that were rather... questionable for reasons I did not have full control over; I probably would have let it slide in the same spirit.

Such is life in ALFA2 2013 perhaps. But again, it was a DM's decision; just because a DM fluffed things with time for a specific session, and just because there are definitely parts of our ruleset that does not make sense timewise does not mean we no longer pay any attention to time or that great travel distances become meaningless/trivial. I definitely attempted to convey a sense of a significant, time consuming and fairly dangerous journey for the folks that traveled by ship from Gwyneth to Rauthym and I think they enjoyed that sense of scope, distance, and time passing.

I would have handled it totally differently of course if they had access to Teleport or Windwalk, etc.

[oldgrayrogue]

I'll say again, my main beef is with a system that leaves you locked in the belly of a ship, unable to log in and play with others, for 24 RL hours. This does not encourage IC RP. All it does is make players not log in, or even worse go play somewhere else. It also puts a burden on DMs, who surely will get requests for a direct server log in and validation by players that actually want to log in and play and not go do something else.

The concept of time and travel is also necessarily amorphous and flexible in a 24/7 PW setting where players are logging in from all different time zones around the globe but participating in the same overall story. Our emphasis on story and cooperative play should encourage this in both players and DMs to get the most players engaged in the stories going on around them. We assume all sorts of things going on "off camera," why not travel? As I said, nothing is stopping players from RPing a "long journey" together, or from RPing a story about their long journey to get to their destination once they get there. Lets face it, IG cross server travel involves clicking on a transition, not actually traveling IG by ship or over land for hundreds of miles. Thus, by its nature RPing such travel requires the player to engage in imaginative storytelling because the actual travel doesn't happen IG 99% of the time. We "bend reality" for the sake of story all the time. We don't require our players to RP eating or sleeping unless these things become part of the story. There is a huge practical side to this as well. People come here to play a game, preferably with others. Our rules should promote that wherever possible.

In my view, given the context we operate in time and travel flexibility just comes with the territory. IMO the only legitimate reason to enforce time and travel restrictions is to prevent abuse from server hopping to run statics, or join in multiple DM events to which your PC has no real IC connection, or most disturbingly for purposes of engaging in CvC. However, we have other rules to address these situations, and DMs are more than capable of preventing such abuses when they see them. Just some things to consider to the extent Admin get around to reviewing the current system.

[Wild Wombat]

In no uncertain terms, i am adamantly opposed to any ingame mechanics that penalize players for wanting to meet up with other players, when their goal is to roleplay.

And that, my friends, sums it all up for me. Of course, I would add a corollary or two since I find OGR's actions and suggestions to be so completely above board that I am truly amazed that they are called into question. That is just one Wombat's opinion, however. Yours may vary and you are entitled to it.