The fallen Pillar ...

[Xanthea]

If we're really pointing fingers at reasons why people are "too" cautious to the point of being OOC, I choose to point my finger squarely at ALFA's incredibly slow leveling.

If people didn't take so long to get a PC to a reasonable level then I think people would be more inclined to take risks. As it is, death shuts your ability to do anything down for months.

And to follow up on that, I also blame ALFA's xp system that means that you can level nearly as fast through a combination of riskless statics, riskless RPXP and riskless DM events. If taking risks and overcoming them was rewarded much more heavily than it was then it might encourage people to take more of them. Same goes for the wealth system which says that a PC should have X amount of wealth at Y level and encourages DMs to try and make up the slack. If people who took all kinds of crazy risks could expect to be much much wealthier because of it then that's another blow to the "safe" playstyle.

[Wild Wombat]

Big risks should lead to big rewards. Fine. They should also lead to short lives. Live fast, die young. Period. In ALFA as in RL. That is what I learned and it is how I still play.

[Mikayla]

I love the small of flaming threads in the morning. It smells like ... ALFA!



The vast majority of player-characters should be played with a fear of death. And a fear of injury, poisoning, disease, undeath, petrification and all the other nasty things that can happen on an adventure. Being afraid of those things does not mean the PC will refuse to go on the adventure; that is what being brave is - doing what you have to do despite your fear. Bravery is not the absence of fear - indeed, without fear, there can be no bravery.

Very few people have no fear, and as one of my sergeants in the army said, I don't want to go into battle with anyone who is not afraid. People who are truly not afraid of combat are not heroes, they have mental problems. As a former soldier, I can tell you I was often afraid, I just did what I had to do despite the fear. Same with all my sisters and brothers in arms.

While I am not taking a stand against the 2-PC rule, I will say that if I encounter someone playing a PC recklessly because that PC is their second, "alt" PC, I will .. well, I will probably get angry and become my old bitchy self, +5. For those that don't recall, I drafted the Pillars of ALFA - I am the one who came up with the name "Pillars of ALFA" in fact (at the time I had a poster of the Pillars of Creation nebula on my bedroom wall, and it was my inspiration).

And I can let go of one of the pillars - but I can't let go of the idea that each and every PC, first, second, main, or alternate, needs to be played as if its a living, breathing person who wants to LIVE. Unless you are actually playing someone who is suicidal (I played someone like once in NWN2 - her name was Lotus and she had a very, very dark past and a very, very dark outlook on the painful struggle of life). But, even though they are adventurers, the vast majority of our PCs should want to live, and should act as if they want to live, even when going out on adventures. Now, sometimes, something may happen that your adventurer is willing to give their life for - Babras sacrificing his life to save his grand-daughter comes to mind - but by and large, playing our PCs "cautious" makes sense. And keep in mind, this is *relative* caution - cautious people don't pick up swords and trudge out into the woods to kill goblins, or go skulking through caves fighting bugbears. They get jobs and raise families, tend crops, work in shops and generally avoid combat. So, while you might think most of ALFA's PCs play too cautiously, the truth is that even the most cautious of them is probably way, way more brave and reckless than 99.99% of Faerun's inhabitants.

One last comment about paying for gear: I was in a recon unit for 2 years, and (at that time) we were not issued tactical head-sets. We had to buy our own, and they cost us hundreds of dollars each - a big cost for a bunch of enlisted soldiers. Since then, the military has improved its communications and now issues head-sets, but ... they now charge the soldiers for MREs! Which I find crazy. So, yeah, soldiers get their weapon issued to them, and their radios and their night-vision goggles, but they have to pay for their uniforms (you get some in basic training, but after that, you have to pay for them) and their MREs and lots of other stuff. Its not as bad as ALFA, but its not as good as you might think either.

M.

[Rumple C]

Blah blah blah

Just log in and play!

[Galadorn]

^ love it!

*logs in*

[Castano]

well said Mikayla, this is an RP community, the problem is most of the members do not TRUST the other members to play their toons ICly. Hence all the forum drama.

I want members to play here, that said if (1)people cannot play their toons ICly or (2) people do not trust the members here to play their toons ICly, such that we need piles of rules and systems to make them feel comfortable, then I don't know what to say....

It's not that hard - write a bio, play the PC to the character's traits and motivations as they grow within the story.

[Witchdoctor]

well said Mikayla, this is an RP community, the problem is most of the members do not TRUST the other members to play their toons ICly. Hence all the forum drama.

I want members to play here, that said if (1)people cannot play their toons ICly or (2) people do not trust the members here to play their toons ICly, such that we need piles of rules and systems to make them feel comfortable, then I don't know what to say....

It's not that hard - write a bio, play the PC to the character's traits and motivations as they grow within the story.

that

[Ithildur]

What happened at T-Ices game? There were over a dozen people, half of them playing their second characters... so I backed out of an overloaded game.

Nodded to several of Duncan's points, and T's sessions do get bloated... but I do have to point out... in fact none of the other PCs were alts.

But I do miss the sense of players (and DMs) being 100% invested in the single PC.

If we're really pointing fingers at reasons why people are "too" cautious to the point of being OOC, I choose to point my finger squarely at ALFA's incredibly slow leveling.

If people didn't take so long to get a PC to a reasonable level then I think people would be more inclined to take risks. As it is, death shuts your ability to do anything down for months.

Non sequitur and not true... at least it used to be untrue; people around here used to charge bravely at Frost Giants at low lvls if they felt it was IC to do so (some still do, like Rumple's PC's near suicidal decision to jump through the portal by himself!) ... if this has changed, that has nothing to do with the current ruleset or xp gain rate (which if anything has made leveling much easier).

[Xanthea]

people around here used to charge bravely at Frost Giants at low lvls if they felt it was IC to do so (some still do, like Rumple's PC's near suicidal decision to jump through the portal by himself!) ... if this has changed, that has nothing to do with the current ruleset or xp gain rate (which if anything has made leveling much easier).

You're making vague comparisons with some point in the past that you feel were better, perhaps.

All I know is I've seen permadeath servers where characters had an average life expectancy of maybe a month. And the thing they all shared in common was that people either started at the level cap as soon as they made the character, or it took maybe a week to reach the level cap.

I'm not saying that's the ideal that ALFA should be aspiring to, I don't even like rapid character turnover, and I don't think super speedy leveling is right for ALFA. But I think there's a pretty good case that the longer it takes to reach a relevant level again the more reluctant most people will be to lose a character.

[Swift]

Getting past the low levels to what is considered 'useful' has never been faster or easier. I cannot believe it is still on people's complaint list.

[Veilan]

Dear Lord....there has come a day when Duncan and I agree....

You take the words right out of my mouth... I'm as shocked as you are.

[Castano]

Getting past the low levels to what is considered 'useful' has never been faster or easier. I cannot believe it is still on people's complaint list.

This. Tired of retconning PC XP gains, but not too tired to still do it. Esp. now that a nice software tool is coming out to handle this issue

[oldgrayrogue]

I really don't get where this thread has gotten to.

It really is simple, play your PC the way you created them. If your PC is cautious or a coward, play them cautious and cowardly.

If your PC is brave or recklessly fearless then play them that way.

My point was that the 2 PC rule has the benefit of enabling some people to play the big bad evil barbarian like a big bad evil barbarian by eliminating the OOC caution that dictates the RP of many players. Playing with more freedom from the OOC player fear influencing your RP is a good thing. Some say it means you are less invested in the character as a player. I say you are more invested to play the character ICly as it was created instead of according to the player's OOC fear of losing the character. I take no issue with players RPing IC character fear. My issue is when OOC player fear appears to dictate the direction of the RP.

If ALFA has a problem, IMO it is not that players are not invested in their characters enough -- it is that many players in ALFA have become hopelessly and forever enamored with that one character they have managed to play for so long that survived. The player is so in love with that character they OOCly do not want to lose it at all costs. Its not the level 10+ whatever PC that is "cautious" or "intelligently fearful" its the player that is these things. I know this because I see many characters act like very important very brave and very daring or very evil characters until their players think that just maybe their might be some actual risk of character death (and character loss to the player) coming their way. This leads to all kinds of OOC nonsense creeping into the game IG and also to all kinds of silly OOC drama when there is even the smell of a threat that something might happen to said treasured PC. (See e.g the new CvC rule). This is somewhat understandable because in ALFA it can take years to play a PC to a higher level and all the story that comes with that is something we treasure.

I frankly would be fine with a 1 PC rule if ALFAns were more willing to retire PCs and start over. I see the rule as giving some an "out" to be free to play their alts more ICly by eliminating the OOC fear of loss of their beloved main. Personally, I like the 2 PC rule because I always have like 5 or 6 character stories bouncing around in my head. I am invested in all of them and want to play those characters. I am sure that many other players -- some have said so here -- like the 2 PC rule for the same reason. It is an outlet for more and diverse creativity and imagination. The idea that one can only be truly invested in one character story at a time is utter nonsense. Any great novel any of us has ever read involves multiple characters created (usually) from the mind of a single author. Is the best selling author less invested? Does the story of the main character in the book suffer because the author also has a story for the villain, or for a supporting character? I just don't get these arguments from a story perspective. I think the reason is that while they are couched in terms of IC considerations they are truly driven by players OOC fears of character loss, whether the player realizes it or not. Avoiding IC/OOC crossover is the single hardest thing to do in true hardcore RP. It's understandable.

The RP purist in me thinks this perspective is silly. I personally think all good stories have a beginning and an end. I am sure most award winning authors feel saddness and loss when they write the last few pages of a story. But losing a character can be a much more rewarding experience for the player -- with all of the emotion that comes with it -- than having the character survive into perpetuity. I don't play to OOCly win or to acheive some lofty OOC goal that I have as a player for my PCs, but for the thrill ride of the journey wherever it may lead. My PCs goals direct that journey for sure, but the thrill is in the chase not the catch. I don't deny reality, however, and the reality is that many other players really just want to have that one beloved PC around forever. You would not be seeing so many new fresh characters in ALFA without the 2 PC rule. Attendance also seems to have picked up quite a bit both on the player and DM side since it was enacted. It is refreshing and got me playing here again, that's for sure.

[maxcell]

+1 Galadorn
+1 Veilan
+1 Danielmn
+1 (shockingly) Adanu
+1 Mr Duncan
+1 Swift
+1 to one of Castanos
+1 to dear Orangetree
+1 to Mikayla (will always be so due to fear)
+1 to Ithildur

Now all of you +1s stfu because you are a minority and you don't matter anymore.

To sum up the future of Alfa, I quote its loudest proponent :
"I want to start my pc at levl 3, no 4, no 5, wait 10! Also I want unlimited PCs, because that is funner. Also walking everywhere takes too long. Also when I start at 3, or 4, or 5, or 10, it takes too damn long to get to 4, 5, 6, or 11 with all our rules." ~ X

now cue the over verbose defense by one of the current tech team members because they need to show that they are smart.

And this kids, is how to get a thread locked.

[Stormseeker]

Well done ogr you say it a whole lot better than i can. That use to bother me so much, play with people who know a server front and back...and i could tell when something bad was coming up on the spawns....all of a sudden these same pc's that bragging and crowding the front...drop back to the rear and start doing that short point and click edging forward. lol now i look at it as a window into the personality of the person behind the pc. Some people are driven by fear, even in a game, and i feel sorry for them.