The fallen Pillar ...

[Witchdoctor]

I have now heard at least one fair point against having 2 PCs. If an idiot uses a second pc as a crash test dummy then they suck. I doubt their RL is that great either because of said suck. An alfan ban hammer is small threat against RL losers so meh.

The whole "oh you are so selfish because you get dm attention with your 2nd PC" is pretty lame. As some have pointed out, the 2nd PC can not be played at the same time as the first so that makes it kinda hard to absorb the attentions of 2 DMs at once? Is the point that another DM is potentially taken some other time in the week with a different toon? "You have had DM attention this week and therefore you are over your alotted DM time". Can anyone tell me when the thread about DMs and players meeting up started? It seems that would be the place to find a DM.

I won't apologise for at one point having 2 active DM sessions per week. I am having fun in alfa and wish the same for everyone else. I also don't buy all the excuses people make for why their alfa experience has been tarnished by it. Understand that it has affected them? yes. Feel bad that they are not enjoying the game as much as before because of it? yes. Willing to help them solve the problem? sure. I was curious to hear what those problems might be and I will do what I can to help eliminate or minimize the impact you feel it causes.

Bottom line: regardless of my feelings about the "problem(s)" I will actively help anyone solve it. I have a genuine desire for all of us to have a good time. Need a DM? let me know and I will either help you find one or give you one of my time slots if I am contributing to the problem you are having. Please don't take this offer as an attempt at being a martyr, everyone can flame, I am just extending a hand to help you find the enjoyment in game that alfa is sharing with me.

*edit* didn't read the point made by ww or I would have saved some typing and just said "need a slot I am hogging? tap me on the shoulder and I will bow out no hard feelings.

[oldgrayrogue]

J

I respect your opinion, but your premise rests on the false assumption that the "reckless" adventurer PC, and the experience the player (and others) get from that PC's story means absolutely nothing. You assume that someone who plays this type of PC can't have any story attached to it or anything worthwhile to contribute from an IC story based RP standpoint. I disagree. The idea of PCs who actually behave like courageous adventurers is very refreshing to me. Often times heros die, and stories about self sacrifice or near suicidal villainy makes lots of people in Hollywood rich. The idea that only some trained, properly equipped professional can behave heroicly is divorced far from reality. If an alt PC leaves some players comfortable to playing their PC without OOC distractions about survival I say it is a good thing.

Your analogy to respawn servers is also way off base. We don't have a respawn button in ALFA as you know. When your PC dies, main or alt, he stays dead, absent some IC resurrection of course. So there is a very real loss there. However, your statement that the PCs who die are replaced by "more intelligent adventurers" seems to provide a window into your own perspective. You think adventurers who die while adventuring are "stupid." Again I disagree. That is not necessarily the case. Some may be, but some also may be heroic, courageous, self sacrificing or just plain balls to the wall evil bad asses who don't give a F and know no fear. Conversely, some adventurers who manage to survive may be more lucky than smart or well trained and well equipped. That applies in real life as well as fiction. Ask any soldier, cop or fire fighter. All of the above make for good story and entertainment in my book. I for one am here for the entertainment.

We all play this RP game for different reasons. Some play it to "win" -- to survive, to dominate, to outshine, outwit and outclass other players and/or groups. Others play for the story and the interaction with others -- for that storied experience we get and for the thrill that comes with it. Some play for a combination of both. Lets respect that.

You also missed my main point. We should all play ALL of our PCs without entirely OOC thoughts of character survival dictating the RP. Yes, RL heros like soldiers and firefighters go into danger prepared and with a healthy fear of the consequences. If that is how a person plays their PC then more power to them. But I'm willing to wager that the OOC quest for survival and uber status is what is softening up a lot of player's RP more than a two PC rule. What you offer are really justifications for that, to my thinking. I see a lot of supposedly ruthless or heroic PCs in ALFA played like candystripers --- that is until they have enough levels or loot or pals around to act like the heros or villains they claim to be.

As far as issues for new players or any players getting in a group to be DMd I tend to think that has more with just getting to know each other. Most people tend to play with others who they feel comfortable playing with. That can take time, and sometimes over time people become more comfortable with one player or group of players over another.

Anyway, to each his own. Given the tone of your post I felt compelled to respond.

~OGR

[danielmn]

The whole "oh you are so selfish because you get dm attention with your 2nd PC" is pretty lame. As some have pointed out, the 2nd PC can not be played at the same time as the first so that makes it kinda hard to absorb the attentions of 2 DMs at once? Is the point that another DM is potentially taken some other time in the week with a different toon? "You have had DM attention this week and therefore you are over your alotted DM time". Can anyone tell me when the thread about DMs and players meeting up started? It seems that would be the place to find a DM.

I find that you don't get this simple premise....
"NEVER TURN AWAY A NEW PLAYER BECAUSE PLAYER X IS PLAYING THEIR 2ND PC, THEIR FIRST PC GETS PLENTY OF ATTENTION SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND THEY ARE BEING OVERLY SELFISH." lame. However, since you have stated that you are more than willing to bow out to make room for a new player...this lameness is cancelled out. Note that my own premise relies on the fact that you are playing your alt, in a dm run game, and shoving aside a new player. I can only assume the above response was directed toward my post, in that I seem to have been the only one using the qualifier of selfish. If not directed at my post, then feel free to ignore.

[Wild Wombat]

I am leaving this thread in complete bafflement about how I contributed to the angst, given that I said I do not really have a fully formed opinion about whether I like or dislike the Two PC rule.

At the end of the day, I am probably going to still hold the opinion that it isn't worth all the fuss either way.

Have fun guys. This one is not worth my efforts, and I mean that in the nicest way.

[Zelknolf]

Eh... this argument operates independent of the number of PCs about. A player with only one character can still end up part of several plots and/or several DMs and, in so doing, hedge out a person who gets none. The person hedged out is, typically, a new person who we just don't keep, and that hasn't changed with the new policy.

It certainly has changed. The two PC rules makes this situation TWICE as bad and totally unavoidable. In the old system I remember players being told not to server hop from one game to the next but you cant tell that to the players second PC.

You were one of those players blocking that new player from getting in to a game while enjoying your new second PC, btw.



J

I don't believe that I need to get into the verbose explanation of how an incorrect extrapolation of data can skew your results, but that's what you've got right there. Twice the characters with a constant number of players getting twice the DM time by default seems like it's a terrible assumption based on emotion rather than actual observation-- especially when in the case of two of the players in your only example, the increase in DM time had was in fact incalculably large on account of going from "none" to "not none" upon joining the campaign, what with that being exactly why Rumple extended the invite to begin with.

[Witchdoctor]

I find it a challenge to say what I want to say without tone and facial expressions to help me convey my feelings. I do not feel angst at anyone.

@danielm: should have read your post more carefully, would have said the same thing but wouldn't have framed the words that way. It does indeed look like I took a shot at what you wrote. Didn't intend for it to look confrontational like that. You have more of my respect than that, even if we do not see things the same way on this.

@WW (won't give you the 2 unless the other one comes to claim his WW back ) We may not be on the same side of the 2 pc thing but we are on the same side of wanting everyone to have a good exprience in alfa. I for one do not feel angst towards you or anyone else.

also just to keep this on topic: I love the 2 pc rule and I am treating my 2nd with just as much care as my main. In fact if this policy were reversed I would spill a few tears myself trying to decide which one would survive to actually be my main.

edit: what a difference n't can make to a word

[Xanthea]

You do not see them because there are supposed to be consequences, like dying from being a flippant reckless idiot who does not have a team and who rushes in to threats. Those people are supposed to die and be replaced by more intelligent adventurers.

You know what'd make people be more cautious? If you die you get banned from ALFA. Or if you die in ALFA... you die IN REAL LIFE!!!

Having a 2nd PC is not a respawn button and trying to compare the two is just disingenuous.

[Stormseeker]

I have gotten in trouble in the past with hdm's and dm's for playing my pc's to close to the edge.(aka messing with their dm events) I love to play that way because that is how i use to be in real life. lol now that i am over 40 and crippled up i live threw my pc trying to find that rush again.
1 pc for dm and players...to be around a while. The 2nd pc is what i trully love to rp, after all you aint really started living till you start breathing down DEATH's neck.

Would like to point out that soilders,fireman,etc...don't pay for their own gear or the "heavy" gear they use.Plus they receave pay and training on top of that. Havent found a order yet that supplies low levels with gear,training, and pay.....players must supply all that. lol funny this is where alfa is completely opposite of real life and even the Realms themselves.

[orangetree]

Hi...

I'll confess that I am 'player A'...

I've always been on the fence on this, but Mr Duncan makes a 'very' persuasive argument. I never actually thought about it in this way though. I just thought the event was an 'alt only' event, taking place in its own particular time line. It's not as if the characters got involved anywhere else. I even offered to use my own alternative character, believing it to be the norm try try and making a 'braver character'.

Interestingly, I was not allowed to join afterwards ICly for my char being 'too cowardly'... in her only encounter with them. Admittedly she was new and I probably played up the cowardice more then I should have... but she was only level 2 at the time. Now I am faced with this concern that if I do play with the group, I will be amongst some players that don't really care of the fate of these characters, whereas I do care of the fate of my own character... and yet I am told I 'should not' care, as I can always roll another... because after all, why would I be playing in a dangerous situation with a char I actually care about?

I am forced therefore, to agree with Mr Duncan.

[Witchdoctor]

Hi...

I'll confess that I am 'player A'...

I've always been on the fence on this, but Mr Duncan makes a 'very' persuasive argument. I never actually thought about it in this way though. I just thought the event was an 'alt only' event, taking place in its own particular time line. It's not as if the characters got involved anywhere else. I even offered to use my own alternative character, believing it to be the norm try try and making a 'braver character'.

Interestingly, I was not allowed to join afterwards ICly for my char being 'too cowardly'... in her only encounter with them. Admittedly she was new and I probably played up the cowardice more then I should have... but she was only level 2 at the time. Now I am faced with this concern that if I do play with the group, I will be amongst some players that don't really care of the fate of these characters, whereas I do care of the fate of my own character... and yet I am told I 'should not' care, as I can always roll another... because after all, why would I be playing in a dangerous situation with a char I actually care about?

I am forced therefore, to agree with Mr Duncan.

I play my second pc the same way as the first. Depending on how I precieved him in the first place. Ironically enough my "main" PC is much more reckless than my 2nd. And it should be thus, my first is a chaotic aligned warrior as my second is a lawfully aligned wizard. Try to play your PC the way you created them folks and forget about this "main" vs. "alt" stuff or am I missing the boat on this somewhere?

[Castano]

meh you can always re roll your 1st PC too. These arguments are nonsense, you all already had 2nd PCs on Dalelands, BGTSCCCCC, Exodus etc.

Make a risk taker or not. Your choice. Risk takers are either wildly successful or die depending on how smart they are. The fact no one ever dies is why ALFA feels stagnant sometimes and why I woudl argue you are all playing the same overly cautious PC with different avatars. Our PCs are supposed to be adventurers.

[danielmn]

Hi...

I'll confess that I am 'player A'...

I've always been on the fence on this, but Mr Duncan makes a 'very' persuasive argument. I never actually thought about it in this way though. I just thought the event was an 'alt only' event, taking place in its own particular time line. It's not as if the characters got involved anywhere else. I even offered to use my own alternative character, believing it to be the norm try try and making a 'braver character'.

Interestingly, I was not allowed to join afterwards ICly for my char being 'too cowardly'... in her only encounter with them. Admittedly she was new and I probably played up the cowardice more then I should have... but she was only level 2 at the time. Now I am faced with this concern that if I do play with the group, I will be amongst some players that don't really care of the fate of these characters, whereas I do care of the fate of my own character... and yet I am told I 'should not' care, as I can always roll another... because after all, why would I be playing in a dangerous situation with a char I actually care about?

I am forced therefore, to agree with Mr Duncan.

I play my second pc the same way as the first. Depending on how I precieved him in the first place. Ironically enough my "main" PC is much more reckless than my 2nd. And it should be thus, my first is a chaotic aligned warrior as my second is a lawfully aligned wizard. Try to play your PC the way you created them folks and forget about this "main" vs. "alt" stuff or am I missing the boat on this somewhere?

This. Play the PC. Be IC. that may mean being wrecklace. that may mean being cautious.

[Wild Wombat]

I know, I know... I said I was going to leave this thread alone. But the following has nothing to do with the topic of multiple PCs, so I am not really posting again. Got that?

Anyway: Some folks get off on the rush that ALFA gives them. Probably most of you do. However, I am ALFA's biggest chicken. Seriously. NWN1/ALFA1 scarred me for life. I always minimize risks. My PCs do not want to die and will take precautions to prevent that. I call it playing smart. You may call it playing like an accountant. But does that mean I don't have fun? Seriously? If I didn't enjoy myself, I wouldn't play. Unless I was a masochist who got off on not having fun. Which would mean I was having fun while not having fun. Make sense?

There, now you know how I feel about this whole thread. From both sides!

(And there you have it. My wife puts up with my ridiculous humor all the time, so I give to give her a break I am subjecting you to it.)

[orangetree]

I play for story. Dead characters end their particular story... The only thing I can do when they die, is make a new story. If they die every week or month, there is little to no story to make from them. I'm cautious with all my characters for this particular reason. It might not be an interesting story to anyone else, but it is to me. I lost a character with a wonderful story on my first time playing, and it... feels cheap, to just try re-making the story all over.

That being said.. caution does not make for a good story all the time. Which is why I think I've been on the fence for it. A long lived cautious character can keep up the story centric aspects of RP, while an alt can have shorter, less invested story, and still be fun to play. It all sounds reasonable. But that is the issue... they are 'less invested'... not so much to lose... expendable.

[Xanthea]

If we're really pointing fingers at reasons why people are "too" cautious to the point of being OOC, I choose to point my finger squarely at ALFA's incredibly slow leveling.

If people didn't take so long to get a PC to a reasonable level then I think people would be more inclined to take risks. As it is, death shuts your ability to do anything down for months.