The fallen Pillar ...

[Galadorn]

Is 2 new players.... more valuable than a Player who was here for such a long time as to be considered a veteran player.

slightly offensive question

lol offensive?! No. Depends how you answer it i suppose.

If you feel offended... I am sorry you felt that way. The intention was of course not to offend...

[Castano]

don't offend our DMs please.

[Galadorn]

two pc's allows me to play the 1st one slow and steady on tsm, the 2nd pc allows me to play "dangerously"...aka my normal play style on multiple servers.

OH NO.



But thank you Storm, you bring me to the 3rd but very real reason i am not a fan of the 2 PC rule.

Players now, have a way, to play in a way fueled by the OOC "way you normally play"...which is not the way you would play if you only had 1 PC... get my drift?

Not only that, players, not ever naming any, but some players, have the very real possibility for a "cannon fodder" PC! SO OOC.

Y'all can tell me "This is ALFA people don't do that around here." To which I will snort la cafe all over the screen. Blasphemy!


Test caves out!

Find out where that Static plot item is with PC-who-cares, if too dangerous, won't go there with my "Main" no way!

Argue IC with dangerous other PCs! Etc. Etc. With no fear of even endangering in any way their "Main" PC.

.............
.............

WW2! saaaaaave meeeeeeee

[Galadorn]

don't offend our DMs please.

I would try my very best to never intentionally offend anyone.

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would think my question was offensive.

I truly am sorry if it did... and apologizing is all i can do after the fact if what I said which i thought was not offensive in fact offended after the fact.

In my defence, some people are offended by Pink wall paint, holding a door open for them, or the smell of Durian (actually MANY people are offended by this). I'm not offended by any of the above.

Now I know. Sorry puny.

[Veilan]

T'is a weird day for me... but I think Galadorn sums up many concerns nicely, and likely in a less condescending manner than I could .

Cheers,

[Stormbring3r]

I like the two PC rule.. In out pnp group I probably have close to 50 PC's now.. if not more..

2 toons on different servers is a great way to broaden your horizons so to speak.. Also lets you travel some without server jumping for DM's.. You can keep PC 1 on your home server and roll a new toon on server 5 and RP without breaking the RP factor of your main toon.

I play the same.. well almost the same with my new toon and I do with Merry.. I like to wonder around instead of sit around inn's. Call me an adventurer at heart I guess.. I can RP whilst walking better because, I can then re-tell the stories of my travels. Not make them up.

[Adanu]

PPretty please with a cherry on top let's not bring political correctness level sensitivity into this.

[oldgrayrogue]

two pc's allows me to play the 1st one slow and steady on tsm, the 2nd pc allows me to play "dangerously"...aka my normal play style on multiple servers.

OH NO.



But thank you Storm, you bring me to the 3rd but very real reason i am not a fan of the 2 PC rule.

Players now, have a way, to play in a way fueled by the OOC "way you normally play"...which is not the way you would play if you only had 1 PC... get my drift?

Not only that, players, not ever naming any, but some players, have the very real possibility for a "cannon fodder" PC! SO OOC.

Y'all can tell me "This is ALFA people don't do that around here." To which I will snort la cafe all over the screen. Blasphemy!


Test caves out!

Find out where that Static plot item is with PC-who-cares, if too dangerous, won't go there with my "Main" no way!

Argue IC with dangerous other PCs! Etc. Etc. With no fear of even endangering in any way their "Main" PC.

.............
.............

WW2! saaaaaave meeeeeeee

Galadorn

Try to look at this from a different perspective. What you see as a "cannon fodder" PC may just be a cool opportunity to RP another type of experience entirely. How many truly "reckless adventurer" PCs do we see out there? How many fierce barabarians who won't back down from a fight at level 1 even if their player knows the instigator is a level 10? How many daring rogues who will actually attempt something, well, daring before level 5? To say that the two PC rule allows OOC to creep in to playstyle is to deny what I see as the vast reality in ALFA which is players let their OOC desire to not have their PC perish dictate their RP. Yes, we can say "But my PC does not want to die! That is why he is so careful!" Maybe, I suppose that is why he traipses around the underdark in his spare time instead of planting turnips or something.

Providing someone the opportunity to play a PC without the OOC "fear" that you might lose that "treasured" main concept that you love so much IMPROVES the RP experience for everyone. It REMOVES the OOC player fear of "losing" a PC and liberates some people to play how they really should play EVERY PC. I for one think it is great to see people playing that way. It is more realistic to me, more dynamic, makes for more interesting and exciting RP and makes me feel like I am participating in a fantasy adventure instead of a Sims survival game. Personally, I don't understand the reluctance of players to play ALL of their PCs with a certain amount of abandon. It is so liberating and immersive to me. Yeah I too try to get them to last the first few levels because it sucks to die from a horse kick or some nonsense. I have no choice there, ALFA won't start at level 3 and give my PCs a fighting chance =P. And I also don't get the reluctance to retire PCs and start fresh. But I also don't deny that many players have those feelings and the OOC reluctance to play a certain way that comes with it. If 2 PCs liberates them to play more and diverse PCs not afraid to take risks I see it as more fun RP interactions for me. I RP because I like the interaction with different and diverse characters and concepts. I want to learn their stories and see how it impacts my own PCs story. Try not to look at 2 PCs as a softening of RP and OOC cheese and maybe consider if it is really a liberating outlet for people to spread their RP wings a bit. It's not like the PC played that way doesn't die, after all. There is a consequence and the nice consequence is that when they do die we all get a nice fresh new character to meet and RP with. Pretty cool if you ask me.

[mr duncan]

Try to look at this from a different perspective. What you see as a "cannon fodder" PC may just be a cool opportunity to RP another type of experience entirely. How many truly "reckless adventurer" PCs do we see out there?

You do not see them because there are supposed to be consequences, like dying from being a flippant reckless idiot who does not have a team and who rushes in to threats. Those people are supposed to die and be replaced by more intelligent adventurers.

I can play with those idiot character types on any other server with a respawn button.

How many fierce barabarians who won't back down from a fight at level 1 even if their player knows the instigator is a level 10? How many daring rogues who will actually attempt something, well, daring before level 5?

EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER on any server with a respawn button. You can get brave foolish and reckless characters by the truckload on any server like Haven Sigil or The Dragon Coast. Any of them. The thing you are asking about is as common as sand on a beach.

You know what is really cool and rare though? Characters with fear. Characters that have to behave as if their world were full of danger.

To say that the two PC rule allows OOC to creep in to playstyle is to deny what I see as the vast reality in ALFA which is players let their OOC desire to not have their PC perish dictate their RP. Yes, we can say "But my PC does not want to die! That is why he is so careful!" Maybe, I suppose that is why he traipses around the underdark in his spare time instead of planting turnips or something.

You have forgotten this happens in real life. People take very dangerous jobs like firemen and Marines... Yet these people doing dangerous things do everything they can to be safe. Marines are not sent to patrol downtown Baghdad without a well trained crew and the best gear they can get their hands on. They do their dangerous job but they try try try to be as safe as they can. So the example you build up and then roll your eyes at here of the adventurer who should plant turnips instead fails to make a solid point.

Providing someone the opportunity to play a PC without the OOC "fear" that you might lose that "treasured" main concept that you love so much IMPROVES the RP experience for everyone.

I mentioned some servers earlier that are full of weak RP precisely because they remove the element of fear from the game. The argument you make here is the EXACT same one made by new people who do not like our permadeath rules.

There is a consequence and the nice consequence is that when they do die we all get a nice fresh new character to meet and RP with. Pretty cool if you ask me.

I will point out that the character is not new or fresh if you have been building its levels up slowly in the background while playing your other character. If you want a new and fresh character after your last one, you will need one that is actually... uh... nice and fresh.






Rather than just respond to you, I wanted to say why I think two characters really sucks. It makes each of our characters less valuable. How does it do that? I will explain.

Normally a DM needs players, so he makes room for what players he has. New DM games always draw a gaggle of players and as old games go on they need new players to replaces losses. This gives new players and old players with new characters ways to get in to game easy. We NEED them to fill out our games. Two PCs upsets this gamer ecology. I will give an example, this example has happened three times since I have been paying attention.


Player A has a new character and wants to get in to a game, she asks the players and the DM and is told she can not play because the game is already full. Hey this is normal... you can not get in every game. You do not fit in every game, so swallow the rejection and move on right?

Under normal circumstance I would agree. But the game full of six people consists of three people playing their second PC... Three of those players HAVE CHARACTERS AND ARE INVOLVED IN DM GAMES ALREADY! This new player can not squeeze in her niche because a few of them are well known ALFAns and they have no trouble getting in to games with any number of characters we might allow them to play. So the new girl gets to sit alone and talk OOC with me about wether or not she should quit ALFA and maybe go back to one of those other servers she came from. (I talked her out of it, BTW. You are welcome)

Under the old system we would not have the same six people filling up all the slots in two different DM games. Under the old system each of our characters were more valuable because DMs who wanted a game needed some players and would work with whoever was there wanting to play. Now we are in a situation were characters are twice as plentiful and thus half as valuable.

The next example I will make affected me directly, so no need of 'Player A'. I was very excited to log on early and make it to T-Ice game, seems like he is the only one doing anything on BG these days while the other servers are full of games of a dozen or so people so I made a point of waking up early enough to make his game.

What happened at T-Ices game? There were over a dozen people, half of them playing their second characters... so I backed out of an overloaded game. It is not T-Ices fault that people flood to his games, but it is our fault that people who are participating in regular games already have a second character so they can change characters and get in on this game of his as a nice little break because their own game is not happening today.



In this argument I have to side with Galadorn. I miss the pillars of ALFA actually being pillars, the things that set us apart from other servers.



J

[danielmn]

Dear Lord....there has come a day when Duncan and I agree....

Again, since I'm usually playing on one server and play one pc, doesn't affect me. I'm never miffed if the dms group is full, or if a dm wants to dm party/group X only. All good by me. But I knew before this all even started, we were ALREADY experiencing a lack of DM's. ANd I knew that 2 pc's would just exacerbate that problem. All we can really do is make sure dm's KNOW to not let the above happen. NEVER TURN AWAY A NEW PLAYER BECAUSE PLAYER X IS PLAYING THEIR 2ND PC, THEIR FIRST PC GETS PLENTY OF ATTENTION SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND THEY ARE BEING OVERLY SELFISH.

[Wild Wombat]

Under normal circumstance I would agree. But the game full of six people consists of three people playing their second PC... Three of those players HAVE CHARACTERS AND ARE INVOLVED IN DM GAMES ALREADY! This new player can not squeeze in her niche because a few of them are well known ALFAns and they have no trouble getting in to games with any number of characters we might allow them to play. So the new girl gets to sit alone and talk OOC with me about wether or not she should quit ALFA and maybe go back to one of those other servers she came from. (I talked her out of it, BTW. You are welcome)

Under the old system we would not have the same six people filling up all the slots in two different DM games. Under the old system each of our characters were more valuable because DMs who wanted a game needed some players and would work with whoever was there wanting to play. Now we are back to a situation were characters are twice as plentiful and thrus half as valuable.

J

Ah. I have been waiting on the sidelines for any compelling argument against two PCs. Mind you, I would not say I am for two PCs, rather that I don't see what the big fuss is about.

Thanks for making an argument that makes me nod and say "Good point."

I would hope that out of common courtesy a player that has two PCs would pick one as the primary PC and be prepared to bow out of a DM event with the other when a person that has no DM comes along.

Now, that said, I hope that we all realize that the cow has left the barn already. The community has voted and we now allow two PCs. I doubt very seriously that that rule is going to go away. But, please try to have some empathy for others when you play. Think like a Care Bear!


(And I just saw Dan's post and it leads me to say, "Dear Lord ... today Dan and I agree. After yesterday I did not think that possible )

[mr duncan]

I would hope that out of common courtesy a player that has two PCs would pick one as the primary PC and be prepared to bow out of a DM event with the other when a person that has no DM comes along.

I have two things to say about this and why it will not happen. First common courtesy is not common. 'Trusting our players' results in people running or doing any of those other things we tell them not to do. In ALFA1 we said it was common courtesty to back out of a game that was too full or one you maybe didnt exactly fit in to the group. But while playing in ALFA since its dawn and visiting every server I saw people bow out of games less than a dozen times. Everyone thinks someone else should bow out, common courtesy is not common.

Appealing to trust works about as well as trusting our players not to run the full length of the servers without putting some mechanical way to stop them. (It dosnt, in case you were wondering.)

Second is that common courtesy does not even always apply to those who would use it. If the players are involved in something long term it might not make any sense to bow out and give that space.

The only way out of this quagmire is to put it in reverse and get as far away from two PCs as possible.


We outlawed Warlocks and it didnt cause ALFA to crumble because we took something away for the good of our game. We can toss the two PC rule in the same trash bin as all the Warlocks.


J

[Zelknolf]

Eh... this argument operates independent of the number of PCs about. A player with only one character can still end up part of several plots and/or several DMs and, in so doing, hedge out a person who gets none. The person hedged out is, typically, a new person who we just don't keep, and that hasn't changed with the new policy.

[mr duncan]

Eh... this argument operates independent of the number of PCs about. A player with only one character can still end up part of several plots and/or several DMs and, in so doing, hedge out a person who gets none. The person hedged out is, typically, a new person who we just don't keep, and that hasn't changed with the new policy.

It certainly has changed. The two PC rules makes this situation TWICE as bad and totally unavoidable. In the old system I remember players being told not to server hop from one game to the next but you cant tell that to the players second PC.

You were one of those players blocking that new player from getting in to a game while enjoying your new second PC, btw.



J

[Wild Wombat]

And I have been operating under the assumption that if you have a PC in a regularly DMed session you do not get priority in any other sessions that are scheduled. The ad hoc sessions are a different thing all together, since they are not scheduled. That is what I followed with only one PC years ago and I assumed that is what was done now.

But then again, I have noticed that there are fewer regularly scheduled sessions than there used to be.

I will be thinking on this a bit more. Thanks for giving me something to do, lol.