duergar racial identity

[hollyfant]

Are Grey Dwarves a sub-race of Dwarves, or are they a separate race?

It's a vague distinction, but important with regards to divine spellcasters: if the Greys are not proper Dwarves, then the Morndinsamman can't/won't patronise Duergar clerics. And vice versa.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

They're a subrace.

[hollyfant]

Do you have canonical backing for that, or is it just a gut feeling?

And what about the Drow? It's noteworthy that Eilistraee is part of the general pantheon and not of the Seldarine...

[Blindhamsterman]

Eilistraee is part of general pantheon as of 4th ed... As is Corellon.

In 3.5 Eilistrae was drow pantheon I believe?

Drow are still Elves, they're just cursed. This is in part proven as Corellon 'takes back' all the non evil drow close to end of 3.5 ed time period (a few years from our IG time) and lifts the curse, returning them to brown skinned dark haired elves.

[Heero]

I thought EIlistraee is dead as of 4e. I think the drow deities with the exception of Lolth and Ghaunadaur, who left the drow pantheon, are all now dead (Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm, and Kiaralansee).

I am pretty certain that is accurate.

[Blindhamsterman]

true, though Eilistraees worshippers all worship corellon instead (as do most of Vhaerauns))

[SwordSaintMusashi]

In the Campaign books. Drow, Duergar, Deep Gnomes, etc are listed as subraces. They all have "these races have the racial traits of <elf, dwarf, gnome...> except where noted below:".

They're the same race for all purposes, just different evolutions of the same race.

[Darkmystic]

Warning this might spoil the drow book series "Wrath of the spider queen epiloge."








Eilistraee is playing a godly boardgame with Lolth, in that game she by using chaos hands her own crescent moon blade to her followers who in a lucky strike with its vorpal edge kills Selvetarm. Later on in the same game Vhaerun joins in and tries to slay Eilistraee.

Whoever won nobody knows fully but out of that battle came a Eilistraee wearing the mask of Vhaerun and both clergies could still cast their divine spells. Kiaransalee is also killed when all her worshippers forgets her name somehow and fades away...

Not to long after Eilistraee realizes she cant defeat Lolth that has grown more powerful with each god's death and sacrifices herself, letting Lolth win the boardgame and doing so fades away. As Lolth celebrates Corelleon sits down in Eilistraee's seat to her sadness and the game goes on, all the drow that worshipped the Eilistraee/Vhaerun combo turned into the normal old drow, brown skinned and able to stand in the light.

Which the 4E Faerun supports since drow has no light sensitive weakness and is a normal race to play.

[Blindhamsterman]

yup and the final page of that book (corellons words to lolth is f***ing epic - see below)

Spoiler:

“Game,” she announced.
On the other side of the board, Eilistraee’s realm wavered. In another moment, it would disappear. Lolth touched her fingers together, then drew them slowly apart, spinning a web between her hands. She leaned forward, poised to ensnare the pieces that buzzed in frantic panic, like flies, on the board below.
“Not so fast, Araushnee,” a male voice said. The point of a long sword touched Lolth’s chest.
Startled, she looked up.
Eilistraee’s realm had not disappeared. Nor were her pieces forfeited. Her place had been taken by another deity who stared imperiously down at Lolth along the blade of the long sword: an androgynous elf with golden hair, wearing white robes, a sky blue cloak, and golden battle gauntlets. A crescent-moon amulet hung against his chest.
He flicked the long sword down. It sliced the web Lolth had been forming between her hands.
“How dare you!” the Spider Queen cried. “You’ve no busiŹness meddling here. You’re god of the surface elves—and these are drow!”
“Look again.”
She did. Rage swelled in her like a ripe egg sac as she saw what had happened. Eilistraee’s pieces had changed. They were no longer black, but brown. Lolth tried to seize one, but it neatly sidestepped out of reach.
Corellon Larethian laughed. “My move, I believe.”

[Ansha]

Kiaransalee is also killed when all her worshippers forgets her name somehow and fades away...

Drow managed to pull off Elven High Magic to erase Kiaransalee's name from existence, and thus she died due to lack of worship.

[Heero]

Corellon is so smug. He reminds me a Dick Cheney, and Ill bet he walks around with the same smug smirk.

[Heero]

He really does. I have made this picture for reference.

[Vendrin]

Yea, that that whole wrath of the spider queen series was completely epic bull shit. God I hate 4th edition.

[Heero]

Yea, that that whole wrath of the spider queen series was completely epic bull sh*t. God I hate 4th edition.

There were too many drow deities to begin with. I mean, what did Lolth really have? Many of the larger drow cities didnt even worship her in 3e/3.5e to begin with. Sshamath didnt, it was all Vhaeraun or Shar; Eryndlyn was split between her, Vhaeraun, and Ghaunadaur; Ched Nasad was destroyed; Maeremydra (spelling?) was destroyed; Chaulsin was destroyed/rebuild as a city for Vhaeraun; and House Jaelre, and the other surface drow, all worship Vhaeraun or Eilistraee. It seems all she really had was Menzoberranzan (with what? 20000 worshippers or so?) and a few smaller, less powerful drow cities that barely get a mention in any source.

Of course, none of that changed in 4e. They got rid of the other drow deities, but now those drow that worshiped them are "dark elves" under the influence of Dick Cheney (Corellon). Not to mention Eryndlyn was cleansed of its Lolth worshippers by the Jaezred Chaulssin, as well as another, southern Lolthian city being destroyed (if I remember right, there are a bunch of drow refugees in the East Rift, no?). That leaves her Menzoberranzan and these other, few, barely mentioned drow cities.

I simply dont see her being a Greater Deity or holding all that much power. The evil empire is now Dick Cheney and his hordes of surface elves and newly converted "dark elves". Itd be no real feat for them, along with their dwarven allies, to march down there and crush the Menzoberranzyr. Then what would Lolth have? Thats right: nothing. And lets not forget the hordes of duergar and other underdark races that hate the drow.

It seems to me this new game of sava aint really all that much of a fight. Damn that Dick Cheney, oh how I hate his smugness.

[t-ice]

See, nobody cares about dwarves. It's all elves. Even the thread about dwarves is all elves. Poor stumpies.