Laws, Charters, etc.?

[NESchampion]

Is there a list we go by with regards to what is standing law in The Silver Marches, as well as how authority extends by region etc? Would be nice to have as a reference point for what the laws are in various areas, rather than just assuming my PC or others know the law as they should.

[davidcurtisjr]

Ughh. Laws again?

[hollyfant]

Laws? Laws? We ain't got no laws. we don' need no steenkin' laws!

Seriously though: please remember that written law codices as we know them, simply do not exist. "Law" is a mixture of traditions, dictates by rulers, ancient agreements between groups and the whim of whoever has the biggest sword. And perhaps even some common sense. I don't think anyone "knows the law" as such. Silverymoon and the Dwarven holds probably have loremasters to consult in difficult situations, while smaller places will have things like a "council of elders" or somesuch to make binding rulings.

Anyone with a healthy respect for authority, a working knowledge of traditions and a good feel for the current political situation could be said to "know the law".

[dergon darkhelm]

There have been some developments over time IC that might be used as a background.

In Silverymoon there is a local constabularly to mete out justice for common crimes as needed. Issues of greater scale can become political quagmires with the Knights in Silver, various religious institutions, the Argent Legion and the Lady's college all weighing in and trying to influence events. On very rare occasions, events of great concern to the realm might be taken all the way to the High Palace, who would be considered the highest authority.


The lands outside of Silverymoon are wild and the villages are merely a loose conferderation. Those that have Argent Legion garrisons have, in the past, adjudicated justice through their local commanders by acting on warrants of arrest or execution.

The Churches in the various settlements also have their clergy involved in administration of justice. What we would call "corruption" is common, where the person of greatest rank or title is often presumed to be in the right.

Both High Hold and Rauvinwatch keep have been used to hold trials for "enemies of the realm", but even those are often politiczed affairs.

Nothing resembling a modern justice system exists. No codifed code of appropriate punishments for crime exists. A commoner who steals a pig might be be fined, placed in the gaol indefinately, receive a public flogging, or be executed depending on the adjudicator and who made the the claim against him.

A few known crimes that might vary from other geographic areas in ALFA:

Slavery is forbidden in the the Marches.
Open worship of the "dark gods" has been a topic of debate. Some worshippers of Velsharoon were summarily executed, while a church of Bane was tolerated by the authorities for some time.


____

Well, that's not much to hang your hat on, but it's something.

[NESchampion]

Laws? Laws? We ain't got no laws. we don' need no steenkin' laws!

Seriously though: please remember that written law codices as we know them, simply do not exist. "Law" is a mixture of traditions, dictates by rulers, ancient agreements between groups and the whim of whoever has the biggest sword. And perhaps even some common sense. I don't think anyone "knows the law" as such. Silverymoon and the Dwarven holds probably have loremasters to consult in difficult situations, while smaller places will have things like a "council of elders" or somesuch to make binding rulings.

Anyone with a healthy respect for authority, a working knowledge of traditions and a good feel for the current political situation could be said to "know the law".

What I'm looking for is more like what dergon laid out; for example, slavery being illegal throughout the Marches is an important thing that the general populace would know is law.

The sourcebook for the Marches seems to lay out the following system of justice generally:

Each community is responsible for maintaining order and enforcing the laws of it's community, and that while there is no court to handle crimes against the Confederacy like Treason, Alustriel has been pushing for such.

Even so, important questions do arise and other characters look to those who serve in some form to be arbiters or at least knowledgeable as to what is or isn't criminal in either the Marches whole or in specific areas. Is worshiping of evil gods criminal in Silverymoon? In Rivermoot? What about drawing blade on a Legionnaire? If an NPC or PC tells my PC I have no authority in a given place, I have no standing to argue because I as a player don't know; if I argue that it is my standing I may see IC punishment later for overstepping my bounds due to a lack of OOC information that my PC would be expected to know or at least have a strong idea about. Similarly if another PC breaks a law that they as a player did not have any way of knowing existed then it robs their character of even the chance of knowing and punishes them at the same time.

[Lucifer]

You are a spellguard..that means where no other obvious authority is claiming precedent..you get to "Take Charge" I think few with no "credited authority" would actually challenge a spellguard ..and those that would ..prolly can only be stopped by force. IE they are pretty Chaotic.

[Ronan]

Lucifer,

Per the SM sourcebook, the Spellguard's domain is primarily over Silverymoon. They do have "significant influence and authority throughout the Silver Marches".

Also per canon, Silverymoon is primarily Chaotic Good (Alustriel's alignment). So I could see a Spellguard's authority being challenged if they're being an ass.

The SM sourcebook has a section on politics, but I don't think it has much if anything on local laws. If I was a TSM DM, I'd look for posts by Ed on Candlekeep.com.

As my PC is a Silverymoon native and a rogue of CN alignment, I'd be interested in knowing the local laws under ALFA canon (possibly for the opposite reasons of NES).

[NESchampion]

You are a spellguard..that means where no other obvious authority is claiming precedent..you get to "Take Charge" I think few with no "credited authority" would actually challenge a spellguard ..and those that would ..prolly can only be stopped by force. IE they are pretty Chaotic.

Am I overruled by local militias? The Argent Legion? What about when the issue is magical in nature instead of mundane? Spellguard are considered High Officials of Silverymoon that "command significant influence and authority throughout the Marches" according to the source book for the setting, but that doesn't explain much at all. If I run across someone I think may be a bandit are they compelled by force of law to follow me to a garrison of the Legion if I demand such? If they refuse, can I force them to come with me, beaten and bound if necessary?

This isn't just idle theorycrafting, I have already encountered scenarios very much like this, and I doubt I am alone. Serving in a legal capacity bears both the authority to enforce laws and the responsibility to do so justly and fairly. Currently I as a player do not know what laws there even are to be enforced, and if I make an assumption that something is against the law and act on it there is every possibility of IC repercussions. And if I do nothing because of the vague nature of laws, when I should have actually done something, then there are still IC repercussions.

A fine line to balance, between failing in your duty to uphold the law and overstepping your authority. And made virtually impossible without any knowledge of what the laws or authority are. And hence the reason I asked in this thread; I don't think it's fair or appropriate to put such a decision on players or individual DMs as they may all interpret the laws and authorities as different. Having something written down at least would give some basic idea of how things are organized and what specifically is and isn't allowed.

[dergon darkhelm]

Having played a law man on TSM for a number of years I ran through many of these scenarios

Am I overruled by local militias?

Maybe. Depends on how the locals are tied to the criminal. Does the Magistrate of WInter's Edge get paid off in a coffer of gold by Fred the Bandit each month in exchange for providing safe haven? Well then, you can bet that said Magistrate is going to use his local influence over the militia to "handle the matter internally without making a scene". Now it's your call as to whether to escalate. RP ----> plotline ---> ???? ---> profit.

The Argent Legion?

Aersume is an arrogant d*bag. If his skinny ass can find political beneift from overruling you from Rauvinswatch then you can bet he will. Once again....your call. Back down on take him on. Maybe you'll be on the same side of clear cut cases....maybe not.

Spellguard are considered High Officials of Silverymoon that "command significant influence and authority throughout the Marches"

Once again, the Marches a very loose confederation. I would expect most commoners to give a spellguard very wie latitude out of fear of the arcane. But will that intimidate other power players on the chessboard? Who knows.

If I run across someone I think may be a bandit are they compelled by force of law to follow me to a garrison of the Legion if I demand such? If they refuse, can I force them to come with me, beaten and bound if necessary?

Sure as shit you can. You can do anything you want. "Alive, if possible. Dead. Just as good."
(( This is where the CvC part of it comes into play...b/c the other player can also do whatever she wants too ))

A fine line to balance, between failing in your duty to uphold the law and overstepping your authority.

I think that pretty much sums up the Rathalan Whitsword experience. Fun, isn't it?

[Zelknolf]

Does anyone know if there's a copy of the agreements that created Luruar anywhere? Or a description of the terms? Or, for that matter, what sort of document they are? Is it a treaty, an alliance, a written constitution? And how close are the different membres of it? Are we looking at ancient Greece, the E.U. or the U.S.? Are there any quirky conditions in it that we ought to know about ("Dwarves must wear their undershorts upon their heads on the third day of every Flamerule, to appease the absurdly-powerful chosen of Mystra who wrote this.")

[t-ice]

Not that I'd know any of TSM in particular, but isn't this whole "what are the laws" thing counter to medieval-ish society that underpins (most of) the Realms.

As a law enforcer you aren't then as much chose to uphold the law in a given jurisdiction as to be the law. And if you're unsuccessful as the law, for example to the point of rising ire of some higher authority, or a mob of peasants and pitchforks, then you'll be removed of your post - possibly via entirely violent and unpleasant means.

To put it shortly, doesn't the medieval setting mean that the ambiguity demonized is in fact how it *should* be. Of course not ambiguity among the DM team, especially if/when playing the same factions, or even the same NPCs. But since the world isn't governed by laws and institutions, instead more by whims of powerful people, a set of rules for "law enforcing" characters to follow and be safe and ok doesn't, and shouldn't, exist.

Also:

per canon, Silverymoon is primarily Chaotic Good

Should mean doubly that it's not lawbooks that rule.

[Ronan]

Also:

per canon, Silverymoon is primarily Chaotic Good

Should mean doubly that it's not lawbooks that rule.

Well, TSM itself is listed as "LG, NG, CG". And of course that shouldn't read "primarily", but rather "is more CG than any other single alignment".

[dergon darkhelm]

just imo --

Law *inside* of Silverymoon is probably much more organized than it is beyond the walls.


In the hinterlands of the Confederation ---

As a law enforcer you aren't then as much chosen to uphold the law in a given jurisdiction as to be the law.

Yeah, this.

[Lucifer]

Just to add to my previous..Yes NES..you as spell guard are looked upon to have authority..when it comes to criminals..yes I think you could beat down and take them to trial if need be..the "wise", though you need to judge if IC, course would be if you have to get violent..either kill them.."dead men tell no tales and cant point fingers" or at the very least take them to a venue to be judged in which you are most favored. That in my mind would be the most likely in a mid-evil fantasy setting.
Basically I'm civilized enough to see you have a trial..but cover mine own ass enough to make sure it is a judgement of "my" peers.

As far as laws go..I've never seen any listing snywhere and the above is how "law in The Marhes has been explained to me by different DM's at different times over roughly two years of play there.

[Zelknolf]

To put it shortly, doesn't the medieval setting mean that the ambiguity demonized is in fact how it *should* be.

If we're mimicing medieval societies, codified laws come to us from about 2000 BCE, and the middle ages brought us common law (and, thus, the concept of legal precedent -- and added to the notion from 2000 BCE that ambiguity is bad that ruling inconsistently about the unambiguous legal codes was also bad), organized trials, prosecution and defense supported by evidence, and the solidification of the concepts of counsel, judge, and legislator (Legislator was often also executor, yes, as the constitutional monarchy and separation of powers wasn't really a thing until the 17th century, but the middle ages definitely saw the formation of the first parliaments, too)

This all also, of course, goes into the context that by the middle ages, there'd been a millenium of study behind the concepts of canon law, which is easily on par with the specificity of modern legal codes-- often more specific: there were deep and complex theological discussions behind "Don't rub your genitals on that chicken. Especially not in public." Though that one doesn't really translate well into Forgotten Realms (there doesn't seem to be any continent that says "This god is the right god and your gods aren't actually gods, because you guys are all liars and idiots-- and we therefore find the writings about the physical manifestations of our guy to be a valid source for social structure. We're going to stab you for praying to those other gods now." -- FR really just seems to have that last part.)