Tech Staff Status Question: Feats?

[psycho_leo]

Sidenote, what do you mean by "restrict the future options of the PC"? Don't understand that part.

Maybe that's not what he is thinking at all, but if we go with this it will mean a DM will have to go to the toolset every time a PC with this feat buys/gets a new boot to add the dodge bonus. The new pair will also have to be non-drop and DM's will be needed to sell/ give it.

[Veilan]

Of course, I already thought of those implications, and it is a clumsy way to do it (hence why I was asking whether we could put the +1 AC in some other form on some other item, say, a misc. small). But it doesn't seem to impede a character's future options. Anyway, it was just curiosity mostly what he meant.

Resistance to Energy DR5 vs one energy type
Removed

Whoops - we're clear on this too, aren't we? Since it's not a level one (requires a pretty high fort save), setting it to removed should work fine.

[AcadiusLost]

PL had my meaning- the MindOverBody PC has to beg a DM for a special toolsetting excursion forevermore when getting new shoes, lest the AC bonus be OOC sacrificed in the name of fashion/boots with other properties.

I hadn't realized our +1 AC was in addition to the preexisting bonus- in that case it doesn't matter that we don't know how the game applies it's passive feat bonuses (though if we did, we might be able to grab the +1 luck AC from Luck of Heroes for Mind over Body).

[psycho_leo]

Of course, I already thought of those implications, and it is a clumsy way to do it (hence why I was asking whether we could put the +1 AC in some other form on some other item, say, a misc. small). But it doesn't seem to impede a character's future options.

While it doesn't impede choice, it's certainly a hurdle (which can be huge depending on how easy or hard it is for a player to get a hold of a DM). If this could be done in a way that didn't involve DMs that would be great, but so far it doesn't appear possible.

[Veilan]

What about those shard-items, maybe there's a way to attach a proper luck or dodge AC bonus to one of those? That'd really make our troubles disappear.

Again, if push comes to shove, we may just have to drop it, but it would be need if we could figure out a way - if only to prove that balancing concerns are not about nerfing, but about, well, uh, balancing, heh.

Is everything clear on the other feats? And is there some way we can help still?

[AcadiusLost]

We could make a shard with +1 AC, I just don't know whether it's considered a dodge, armor, shield, deflection, or other in terms of stackability.

Guess I'll go test.

[AcadiusLost]

Created an undroppable, plot, "Mind Over Body feat token" based off a silver shard blueprint, gave it the "+1 AC" item property. There was no way to define what class of AC boost was granted.

In testing, it appeared to stack with:
1) Ring of prot.+1 (deflection bonus)
2) Bracers of armor+1 (armor bonus)
3) Heavy Shield +1 (shield bonus)

Couldn't find non-monk dodge boots to test dodge bonus, forgot to try a nat armor amulet for the natural AC. But, it's a promising start.
[edit: for those with DM access, it's in the item creator under category "OOC" for further testing]

Also, edited feats.2da to accomplish the simpler side of the requested changes:
1) Toughness changed to 1st level only
2) Able Learner changed to 1st level only
3) Circle Kick removed
4) Energy resist feats removed (fire, acid, electricity, cold, sonic)
5) Dash removed (pretty sure I got it, but will still show at char creation).

So, those updating worldgate can test these now on TSM- a cursory check with a wizard, leveling up to 3rd with the gong showed no toughness or able learner available for selection. Will work on the token/door script convo stuff later. (if still deemed necessary)

[Veilan]

Couldn't find non-monk dodge boots to test dodge bonus

Dodge is supposed to stack with other dodge boni, so testing with boots won't help. If it does stack with anything else, that means we're having either dodge or luck or whatever the game gives.

But, it's a promising start.

Indeed!

Also, edited feats.2da to accomplish the simpler side of the requested changes:
1) Toughness changed to 1st level only
2) Able Learner changed to 1st level only
3) Circle Kick removed
4) Energy resist feats removed (fire, acid, electricity, cold, sonic)
5) Dash removed (pretty sure I got it, but will still show at char creation).

Thanks a lot.

[AcadiusLost]

I still maintain that Dash isn't enough an advantage to warrant the frustration of sending a player back out to re-roll their PC, but it's not worth making a huge deal over- just the sort of thing that makes reasonable people shake their heads and wonder. Seems like things that low-priority should only be bothered with if we can keep them off the character creation lists. When you look at it next to 1st level options like Spellcasting prodigy, Luck of Heroes, and others, it seems like a fairly absurd thing to write a special "enforcement" script for, to make absolutely sure no one somehow makes it into our gameworld with a 5% movement speed boost. Unless things have changed with movement rates, PCs already move about 15% faster than most spawns/NPCs, and the 5% still won't make them faster than Fast NPCs. IC reasons could involve army messengers, etc.

[Rusty]

We can live with Dash: my reservations really relate to CvC. There are some horribly effective uses of it for that.

[AcadiusLost]

The simplest technically (though not necessarily the best in principle) would be to make Dash a level 1 only feat. Would cut the overall number of PCs dashing around with this feat, without sending any player back to character creation fuming about wacky ALFA standards. Could always wipe it off the list completely later if we get haks loading at character creation in a later patch.

[AcadiusLost]

Update: start door scripts to assign the Mind Over Body token are now in place on TSM.

[Veilan]

Update: start door scripts to assign the Mind Over Body token are now in place on TSM.

And work splendidly, I wasn't able to outsmart them for dual tokens - thanks, good job AL!

[Veilan]

I've forgotten it myself... but is curse song dealt with?

Thanks,

[AcadiusLost]

It wasn't included in the later lists you offered as need-to-have items, so, no. Also, Dash is still in, but as a level-one only feat (shows up in character creation, because we can't change that at this point, but not in level-ups.) There is no start door enforcement for it, because, as I understood it, it wasn't judged to be enough of a problem to warrant an entire extra set of enforcement scripts to force players back to reroll because of it.

The same will be true of Curse Song- since it's available at level one, we basically force a remake if we bar players from taking it. What is the problem with curse song, again? Right now it's available at level one, and every levelup thereafter, no restrictions.

Also, I was reading the FRCS last night, and it seems to me, that NWN2 actually matches the PnP description of Mind Over Body. There is no canon mention of a +1 armor class, stacking or otherwise. Why was it necessary to script a token to accomplish this, and why was an armor class bonus seen as a necessary change to a feat that's supposed to represent a CON-independent HP boost (a la toughness) rooted on INT score and metamagic feats? This seems a bit dodgy to me, I'd assumed there was a PnP basis for it, based on how it was pitched. Perhaps you were thinking of a different feat?

(Luck of Heroes, for example, gives +1 to all saves, but no +1 AC in PnP, so the reverse modification- removing a +1 AC- from that background/starting feat, would represent a move in-line with PnP.)

[edit: been brought to my attention that the +1 AC came in with PGtF and 3.5E for Luck of Heroes- still seems misplaced on Mind Over Body, though- for a high-int character, it's quite a bit stronger than Toughness, even in the +3 one-time HP mode at first level, with an AC bonus on top of it.]