ALFA2 Maps

[Godpuppet]

I did a search for this, but couldn't find any threads specifically on it.

Are there any plans regarding the in game map? (e.g. M hotkey)


Obviously being able to see everything in the zone is Meta gaming and its going to have a direct effect over your conscious decisions over your character.

Ive had to force myself to remove the hot key (M), to stop myself scanning the map in newly entered areas. It can be frustrating at times not knowing exactly where I'm going, but it what I find it does add, is a greater attention to the environment.

Instead of studying the map at every beck and turn, im actually taking note of trees, rivers, hills more astutely. I find myself remembering places ive been too before better, essentially improving the exploration experience. Though it does require patience.

It also adds emphasis on communication with NPC's other players prior to a journey, which realistically, would be done. Only downer is traveling directions may need to be added to guards in conversations.


IMO the Map should be removed, OR replaced with a world map, and perhaps, if its not too difficult, with a marker of your current location regionally.

I understand this is just fluff in the grand scheme of things, but its the small things that tend to make big things great, and if this can be done easily, it might be worth it.


Whats everyone elses thoughts?

[indio]

I love this type of enforced hardcore rping myself. Not everyone's taste of course.

[danielmn]

Good for players, bad for DM's, as the big ole map is used to jump round the area.

So I would be happy in tossing it in player mode, keeping it in dm mode

[AcadiusLost]

I've found the map function essential for keeping oriented as a player, with the freerotating camera and trying to get a decent angle to keep track of your PC, especially in combat, it can be easy to end up running away from the road instead of back towards it, for example- which wouldn't be IC in most cases, unless you're playing a PC with serious short-term memory problems.

The map is also an essential part of the Tracking interface for NWN2- while I'm not a huge fan of the "monster radar" implementation, it could be a lot worse, and allows PCs to use their outdoors/wilderness skills to some extent in the engine without DM assistance.

There is also the "necessary Meta" information like where the walkable part of an area ends- this can be near-impossible to gauge in a well-built exterior in NWN2, but a deadly thing to be unaware of when fleeing a combat and discovering you're locked into an OOC corner in the middle of what looks like open terrain IC. ATs as well, present difficulties that can be alleviated via map pegs- we've also used map pegs for quests and city navigation in Rivermoot and Silverymoon. Party chat is another example, you as a player need to decide if player "A" is within earshot of your PC if they're scouting ahead/fallen behind your PC in a party. A quick glance at the map is the easiest way to gauge this.

The only real difference here from NWN1 in terms of meta-information about the area itself is the lack of a "Fog of War", revealed as you explore the area. I'm not sure how we could go about adding something like that back- if there were a way, I'd certainly be interested in it. But short of that, I think leaving the present function alone is a better route than disabling it entirely- it does represent a certain temptation to explore, for example, ruins visible off to the side of the road on the map, which aren't visible from it other then by your magical area map- but there are hundreds of sources for meta-information out there, better to trust players to use them appropriately and not go overboard trying to account for the worst-case scenario.

Playing actively in an in-character persistent world environment is a continual exercise in separating what you know as a player, from what your ingame avatar should be aware of. If you find disabling the map helpful at this stage, it's a decent tip for others to try- but I'd not support pulling the map option entirely for everyone.

[Godpuppet]

The only real difference here from NWN1 in terms of meta-information about the area itself is the lack of a "Fog of War", revealed as you explore the area. I'm not sure how we could go about adding something like that back- if there were a way, I'd certainly be interested in it.

Fog of War sounds like a good idea to me, but it could turn out to be a lot of work to pull off (?). Where as simply removing the map may be a few lines of code.

Personally, the absence of a map is better then its presence. But if shroud could be implemented, I'd definitely support it over complete removal.

[Runestaff]

I've found the map function essential for keeping oriented as a player, with the freerotating camera and trying to get a decent angle to keep track of your PC, especially in combat, it can be easy to end up running away from the road instead of back towards it, for example- which wouldn't be IC in most cases, unless you're playing a PC with serious short-term memory problems.

I completely agree. No offense, surreal, but I find the proposal to eliminate the map to be a poor one. Like AL, I also find the map pretty much required to keep my PCs oriented. If you don't, and it ruins your immersion, then you are at liberty not to use it. But imposing that on everybody would likely prove to be game breaking for too many people. Exercise: try navigating Silverymoon or the wilds around Rivermoot without using the map. Now imagine doing so at level 1 when chased by some spawn or other.

I don't find the map any more OOC than the NWN1 minimap. Yes, it had a fog of war (which was nice) but the fog also reset itself when the server did, which was no less OOC than seeing the entire map from day 1, particularly if it was an area you'd explored dozens of times.

[Leevoth]

I suppose it could just be on the player to either use the map or ignore it.

[fluffmonster]

I understand this is just fluff in the grand scheme of things, but its the small things that tend to make big things great,

...indeed...fluff is so very much more...

[Godpuppet]

Exercise: try navigating Silverymoon or the wilds around Rivermoot without using the map. Now imagine doing so at level 1 when chased by some spawn or other.

Aye, I have. Silverymoon is a maze and it can be easy to get lost in the wilds. But then that should be reflected through your character in RP. Your character doesnt have a birds eye view of everything, why should you?

RP wise, your character will get lost in Silverymoon, and ask for directions, then thats where your RP experience develops, through interaction with others.

[psycho_leo]

RP wise, your character will get lost in Silverymoon

If he's getting to know it, most likely. After spending years there, the getting lost bit starts to be ridiculous.

[Godpuppet]

RP wise, your character will get lost in Silverymoon

If he's getting to know it, most likely. After spending years there, the getting lost bit starts to be ridiculous.

Which will be reflected as you consciously firmiliarize yourself with Silverymoon (you will remember landmarks, turnings etc).

Only issue that could arise, is if your new to Silverymoon, and you create an RP with a character who is from Silverymoon.


I can see there isnt much support for this so ill stop argueing it here.

[Rusty]

The only real difference here from NWN1 in terms of meta-information about the area itself is the lack of a "Fog of War", revealed as you explore the area. I'm not sure how we could go about adding something like that back- if there were a way, I'd certainly be interested in it.

AL is spot on here. It would be good to restore that, if possible, which would deal with some of the concerns raised.

[Teric neDhalir]

Actually, I'll chip in here with arguments against the map..
1) On TSM there is/was a static involving finding three caves. A glance at the map and it was immediately obvious where to go to complete the static: no exploration or "play" required (I'll put a disclaimer on this in that I didn't actually go to said caves, so it could be an elaborate ruse on Indio's part. I wouldn't put it past him).
2) Running parties through the scripted dungeon we have on the OAS seems to result in them making a direct line towards stairs down, which I can only assume is to do with being able to see where they're going in advance. Closed doors block off what you can see on the map, but if there aren't any...
I much preferred the NWN1 version where the map updates with what you've actually seen, but I don't know if it's possible to return to that.
Teric

[Brokenbone]

No maps means enterprising Waukeenar PCs can sell IC maps for that matter!

[Avaz]

No maps means enterprising Waukeenar PCs can sell IC maps for that matter!

This is true, although I don't think the current map should be stopping them anyhow, since the ingame map is more of a meta-information thing than ingame knowledge.

Unless your PC is from that particular area or region, of course.