Planetouched for ALFA-NWN2

[FanaticusIncendi]

Personally I've played human characters almost exclusively. I tried an elf once and while the character was fun it was to difficult to make him feel really different, if you play an elf too close to type by rights you should be withdrawing a great deal from non-elves and embrace an entirely alien perspective as you are an ageless and practically deathless being (FR is ambiguoous with this though sometimes has been said elves choose when to pass on). That being said such an outlook is nearly impossible to achieve so I found myself more or less a victim of human-in-funny suit syndrome. From an RP perspective planetouched are far less alien than the other races. They are essentially human characters with just something a little bit different, with just the touch of the alien about them. They aren't humans-in-funny suits because they are human, blessed or tainted perhaps but born of human culture and possessed of normal human biology save for a few powers and physical abnormalities. The theme of a human struggling with a tainted(or blessed) bloodline is a staple of fantastic literature ranging from the myths of ancient Greece to Shakespeare (Caliban), Lovecraft and Machen to even the X-Men (forget the power level here but just the idea of being born as something other than what your parents are).

Nyar just convinced me on the planetouched yes vote.

[Rotku]

That's exactly what we're planning on doing

If anyone is willign to spend a few minutes to put together a list of Pros and Cons, it would be greatly appreciated (else I'll try and do it this weekend, when I have some time on my hands).

[Joos]

All you dudes who starts this discussion by hopping on the whole ECL bandwagon just don't understand what the whole idea of playing a planetoched is all about. Also, you think that these races are more powerful than standard races. Well, they do get a few nice little things, but in most cases, these nice little features don't add up to what makes a strong character in the DnD rules: BAB and HP.
All these nice little features that comes with these so called "powerful" races detracts from the key elements that make a strong and powerful caracter. The simple XP penalty of +1 ECL reduces the characters ability to do damage and reduces his amount of hitpoints by a whole die+con bonus, seriously hampering his battlereadiness.
Seriously, if at all, you should be worried that these "powerful" races are too weak compared to your average battle-monster wood-elf or half-orc.
On the pro side, I would like to quote Nyarlathotep and Burt on page 1.

[AcadiusLost]

For me, the "power" of planetouched isn't really an issue, the burden is on the DMs who have to deal with freakazoid hair-on-fire, scales for skin, "My uncle was a Djinn" character concepts day in and day out- when used as NPCs, major supporting characters in a plot, etc- they can be very compelling and interesting. But BB has it exactly when he says this ~20% of the playerbase could easily start to consume > 80% of DM's time- even (especially) if they're not "in the group" during a session- they're either taking time away from the plot for a DM to jump over and play NPCs reactions realisitically, or they're getting a "free ride" by escaping what would likely otherwise be nonadvantageous interactions (shopkeeper asks for double prices, or refuses to rent a room to the monsterous PC). That's just not a healthy dynamic- I recognise we have the same sort of thing with underdark races on the surface, wild elves, and half-orcs in some settings, but this would add significantly to that burden.

To some extent, we may be able to model some of this with a scripted reaction/reputation system- but there we're getting into some serious heavy lifting in terms of implementation and testing- not to mention tremendous potential for frustration as the scripts kick in when DMs don't expect them to.

To me, I'd definitely not want to see them included if they are opposed by a majority of the DMs who are going to have to deal with them. Even as a player, I wouldn't want to see the DMs burn out or spend all their attention on the Planetouched PC in an attempt to do their server setting justice. Most of the arguments in favor of planetouched inclusion seem to be coming from players, so I worry that we'll run into a "players are for it, DMs are against it" situation- if so, I hope we go with the DM side of things, as that is where the greater burden would seem to go. Even from a player perspective, dealing with "reactions" played by various DMs is going to naturally have a wide spectrum of effects- they're likely to quickly start to feel unfairly treated OOC. Maybe that means they stay put and just work through the DMs they build up trust in, but then you get reinforcement of presumptions of favourtism.

Even if we restrict what servers planetouched can start on, in most cases they will travel wherever they like as IC- so it's something that should be decided collectively as a community.

[Vaelahr]

The exploiting of NPCs would be outrageous. I say this because of the crap I saw as a DM on Daggerford from players who are considered "ALFA's community treasures".....

An exiled drow travelling the Trade Way stops in at a Circle Of Axes Caravan outpost. Hey a hood is all you need to hide race right? Pay no mind to the elven bodytype, the Qu'ellar crest on the armor, the shield with spiderwebby decoration, the hidden face and skin - NPCs are stoopid and won't suspect nuthin'.

And then my favorite was the 4 Charisma svirf joining the Daggerford militia using the enlistment static. Sure, no problem.

[Joos]

Well, the planetouched wouldn't really be in the same ballpark as Drow. They would more be in the same ballpark as half-orcs (tieflings, fire genasi), dwarves (earth genasi), elves (water genasi, air genasi) and half elves (aasimar).
Half orcs are not (in alfa) kos, even though their ancestry is (orcs), which could be comparable to the unfortunate coupling between demon/devil and humaniod (tiefling).
The aasimar would most propably find themselves in the same situation in society as the half elves, one parent human, the other alien. Propably struggling with fitting in, but not disliked, etc.
The genasi would carry the same characteristics as the other non human humanoids, for example, dwarves living in mountains, doing stuff with the earth, crafting and rocks and stuff. Elves being one with nature and all, with air and water genasi having similar physical traits etc. Then the more volatile fire genasi would be more feared etc would make perfect sence to have them bunched in with half orcs on a social scale.
No need for fancy scripts as far as I see it! I don't see why poor RP from underdark races on the surface should accost these perfectly (socially) acceptable races should remove mine (and others) chances to enrich my enjoyment!

[Inaubryn]

Here's the thing. In ALFA if you choose to DM, you make the choice to DM a myriad of character concepts. This is not the intimate table top setting of a few friends getting together to play a game. We've made sure that we've diverged as far away from that concept as we can go. Sorry, had to get that shot in.

Anyway, what I'm sayin' is this. As a DM for many years, in ALFA and out, I've seen and allowed some very interesting concepts. True, at the table I made the decision on what was in or out. In ALFA, DMs have to be a bit more tolerant. Now can a DM refuse to DM said concept, whatever it may be? Absolutely. It should be his/her right to do so. However, they shouldn't be able to arbitrarily ban a specific concept from a server simply because they don't like it or don't want to deal with it. Not if we claim this is a "persistent" world".

I personally wouldn't have a problem accomodating plane-touched considering I've been lobbying for them since before most of you were here anyway. This discussion has been had 14,534,867,423.2 times already. It was decided before I was Lead they'd be allowed. I and the other admin at the time of my tenure also upheld that decision. Fluff,and his retinue, subsequently, upheld that decision. Why is this in contention... again? Oh yeah. That's right. This is ALFA and nerds will find any reason to debate. What's the point of being a nerd, otherwise?

All that being said... if you sign on to DM in ALFA, note that you will be DMing various PC concepts, many of them quite creative, well thought out and different. If you're not prepared to deal with the plethora of PC types pouring into the server you choose to DM on, then you should either, not sign on to be a DM, or barring that, simply let those players know, up front, you won't be dming those types of PCs. There. Now there's no burden, perceived or otherwise, on anyone. Because... here's a novel concept, we actually put the game and the decision in the hands of the people that play. Woah. I know. I'm taking a real chance typing stuff like this. I may be burned for witchcraft after. But, it really is that simple.

There's no need to put forth yet another vote, or poll, or call for a general consensus, or do "rock-paper-scissors", or any of that other nonsense.

They come with the game, they're canon, and they provide interesting, unique, balanced options for players. Simply allow them and let DMs choose to DM them or not.

For the record... I'll DM anything that moves.

[witch]

+1 inaub

[Rotku]

Just out of curiosity, how different are NWN2 Planetouched from PnP?

[witch]

tiefling is reasonably consistent with pnp
aasimar im not really sure
genasi are slightly different in favored class (air genasi), special abilities. but not stronger then in pnp

[Veilan]

For the record... I'll DM anything that moves.

I call discrimination against my paraplegic halfling statue impersonator!

they're canon

And it's canon that races with LA>+0 are not available as player characters in a campaign starting level 1. D'uh.

Garth Marenghi says: Don't say I didn't warn against use of the canon argument, because I did, and that'd mean you'd be lying!

Simple cake - you want canon, then this debate indeed is over and doesn't need to be had. While I'm obviously not really in favour of planetouched (despite my djinn-descended corsair Hakim ben Harad in the wings, that I had great fun with in another project - which was more 1 DM 4 player style) for a PW setup, I think the desire of people to play them merits more discussion then saying that, though.

Just try not to hijack an argument that will come around and bite you in your juicy rear .

Not being able to play them doesn't mean they won't be part of the world, either. Who knows, perhaps it may even motivate some plane-touched proponents to DM so they can develop an intricate plot to persuade the "Tolkien grouches" that they really do add to their gaming experience? That'd be kinda awesome .

[Inaubryn]

Ah, my dear German friend. Allow me to once and for all debunk the argument that some of you less knowledgeable folks have put forth. I'll say this twice so that it's understood.

It is not canon that LA +1 or higher races aren't available as player characters in a campaign starting at level 1. Let me repeat that.

It is not canon that LA +1 or higher races aren't available as player characters in a campaign starting at level 1.

It is DM option on whether or not to allow such races and at what point they start, experience point and gold-wise. I cite pages 21 and 289 of the FRCS. I won't direct quote it because I want all you folks makin' that argument to go and read it for yourselves. Again... DM option, not canon whether to allow powerful races in a level 1 campaign.

Which goes back to the point I made in my above post. They are part of the campaign world. Let those DMs that want to DM do so, and those that don't... don't.

Thank you for reading. We now return you to your regular scheduled Holocaust.

[Veilan]

A PnP DM's in charge of everything, granted.

But I take your FRCS and raise you a 3.5 DMG, page 172.

Summary: ECL races = inappropriate for lvl 1 parties.

Let the rules lawyering begin!

[Inaubryn]

Ah, my aspiring member of the Third Reich. It says that, "...many monster characters are inappropriate for parties of first level adventurers. But you may choose to allow them anyway..."


The monster characters they refer to are the ones more powerful or more alien than drow, duergar, planetouched and so on. As I stated in my first post, ALFA is the furthest thing from PnP DnD, which wasn't its original intent, nevertheless, it is. That being said, DMs in ALFA can't just allow or disallow anything their whims desire. But what they can do and already have the power to do is say, I don't wanna DM this type of PC and/or this player.

DMs can simply make a post in respective server forums stating their desire not to DM certain PC races. Something like this.

To all current and would-be players on the Great Glacier Serrver, I would rather not DM: Plane-Touched, Drow, Duergar, or Alpacas. If you wish to play one of these, understand that I may help you get set up (or not) but I won't be running anything for these PC races.

Thanks.

[Veilan]

The monster characters they refer to are the ones more powerful or more alien than drow, duergar, planetouched and so on.

Err, no.

They list drow, Aasimar, etc. very clearly as part of those "monster races" in the table on that very same page.

Again, this is naught but a rules-lawyering argument, which is why I suggested not to use the canon card in the first place. It's not suitable to our situation, and not a good criterion under which to judge - but if you insist on it, you're bound to lose unless we up the starting level for ALFA.

If the canon route is taken to the end, we'll be looking at:

They're not level 1 characters, they shouldn't be in a level 1 campaign - the DM may allow it anyway, just like the DM may allow some characters to start above level 1 who are humans (maybe the Aragorn-type for the low level party as warden). And the DM may say, in PnP, what they want anyway - a race of flying baboons squirting hot butter out of their fingernails could work there.

So canon is... no LA races in a level 1 campaign.

The "DM can say whatever he wants" is a catch-all and applies to anything and everything. We can't apply that to a PW - just like we can't say "a DM can price / make available items as he sees fit". In a 1 DM 4 player setting, clearly the DM and the players can agree to make their own game and veer off the rules presented in the books wherever they like - I think that is pointed out sufficiently there. To say "but but in PnP, the DM can alter anything" does not mean that thus, PnP doesn't have any rules. It does. It just explicitly encourages the small, controlled playing group to come up with their own solutions.

We, in a PW, need broader strokes for solutions, therefore we first take a look at what's in the book, not what exceptions a DM can make as house rules. And we should then consider criteria to apply these rules to a PW.