Message to the whole ALFA community (from Aelred)

[Misty]

I did not presume to tell you what your message was, I only said how it was interpreted.

as for presuming to read too much or too little...


aw fuck it, why bother? That's the answer y'all want, right?

Your post is awfully presumptuous, Misty. Suffice it to say, you are short on facts and drawing logical but incorrect conclusions. I did at one point invest a good deal of my time trying to get people to do the most basic of things (in virtually every facet of ALFA that I've overseen), but frankly, it only compounded my frustration because a lot of people promised to help but never actually followed through for one reason or another. The end result of that experiment was that I wasted a good deal of my own time and didn't advance the project one iota.

That's not to say that there aren't some real contributors to be found out there. Souvarine proved to me that there are. I realized pretty quickly though that I can't just take all offers of assistance as serious offers. A person has to demonstrate some level of commitment to avoid accelerating my own frustration and burn out.

In that light, the toolset does serve as an initiation of sorts. If someone simply cannot bring themselves to fire up the toolset or download a tutorial or grab a source book and read the relevant parts, then they more than likely will just compound our manpower problems. Now if we had folks around here that could commit exclusively to running a "Lyceum" type operation, things might turn out differently. But until then, I'm going to be extremely skeptical of the notion that casual contributors can impact our project in any meaningful way.

That's my view anyway, but I certainly won't stop folks from trying to do what I found to be a largely futile exercise. Kudos to you if it works out.

[Aelred]

MK and Misty - I agree that having basic toolsetting info on our site readily available will help alot. There is already some very useful stuff here in ALFA such as GrandFrommage's tutorial ( http://www.alandfaraway.org/docs/Techni ... olsetGuide ) and several threads in all in different places. I learned by starting with GFs tutorial and then finding good tutorials on the web. But it would be good to centralize everything for easy access and to save anyone the time of having to search all over the site and the web for resources.

Who adds the new threads to the forums? Rusty? (Is he away on vacation I haven't seen his posts the last few days.)

I propose we add two new MAIN threads under Alfa Projects:
NWN2: Toolsetting
NWN2: Scripting

We can have individual threads for specific instruction and sticky them. Any and all toolset questions could be posted and answered by our builders/scripters. In addition to the stickied instruction threads browsing the question threads would help the learning curve.

Some possible main threads in the Toolsetting forum:

Basic toolset commands (camera movement, tile and placeable placement)
Terraining and texturing and coloring exteriors
Trees
Walkmesh
ATs
Item creation
NPC creation
Conversation trees
Creative use of placeables
External links to toolsetting tutorials

I haven't begun to study scripting yet but I know I WILL have to learn it from scratch and I am a definite tech/compu language idiot. Since Scripting is a whole other ballgame apart from toolsetting I propose we keep the two threads seperate.

_____________________________________________________________

A good way to begin learning is to start out with a simple project and dive right in. Mick144 contacted me yesterday and asked to help with one single easy WD interior. I posted a simple project for him here:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... highlight=

As you can see it is basically a tutorial. Anyone interested in helping out yet not interested in fully signing on as a full time builder can contact Cipher, Indio, Thangorn, Teric or myself and we can post individual projects on the public forums of the particular server. These projects can also be used as tutorials for new builders.

Misty I would love to put your convos to use in Essembra if you still have them - especially knowing what a talented writer you are!

Can people post some feedback on the new Toolsetting and Scripting thread idea?
And if the community expresses interest can an Admin go ahead and create them?

[MorbidKate]

Aelred,

Pooling everything in one place and giving toolset njubs a place to go to ask questions and get advice would certainly be a good start. There are a lot of people who want to help and thought they could... until they saw just how complex the new toolset was. Doing what we can to help new builders get over the learning hump before they quit in frustration can only be beneficial.

Kate

[AcadiusLost]

good lord. how many times does MK have to say 'help the casual contributor to contribute' before it gets done?

Aelred's started this already (has made quite a few threads of the like, though they're not yet organized in any common place). No reason to assume there is no willingness to make this happen, just because the same concern is being repeated. It's a fair bit of work to put these howtos together (and quite a few are on the wiki already, have been for quite some time)- though I'm not sure if there are access level problems with them (can normal members see the "technical" wiki, for example?

Here is a recent guide on how to make interiors from Aelred:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=36352

Also a walkthrough on how to install ALFA's new custom content haks (only necessary if you want to use some of the new placeables, tilesets, tintables, etc):
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=36237

Some toolset tips (a bit more advanced):
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=35107

Grand Fromage's Toolset guide is an excellent resource as well, and it's been out nearly a year now- among other places, it's on the wiki here:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/docs/Techni ... olsetGuide

I'm sure other folks who have been building in the toolset can offer some of the sources they've found helpful so far- I've really only scratched the surface of it myself, as I've been mostly scripting and testing global systems.

There's even a published guide to building under NWN2- I've flipped through it in a game store once- it's not tremendous, but could be a godsend for people who want to be able to flip through for reference or have an organized, physical guide they can curl up on the couch with.

Amazon has that one for sale here.
Might be able to find it in a Borders or game store as well.

If any of the above isn't viewable, let me know and we can see about changing read rights, or mirroring it somewhere else- ideally we'll get a separate place to gather things, though "NWN2 Brainstorming" seems a pretty natural place and should already be visible and postable by all ALFA members.

[MorbidKate]

In that light, the toolset does serve as an initiation of sorts. If someone simply cannot bring themselves to fire up the toolset or download a tutorial or grab a source book and read the relevant parts, then they more than likely will just compound our manpower problems.

Okay... that's the biggest piece of crap I've read in some time Cipher. Initiation?? Are you seriously suggesting that the complexity of the new toolset should be used to wean out the uncommitted? Holy shit. You already have the result of that so you might as well turn off the lights now if you think that tactic will somehow draw in new people looking to help.

Now if we had folks around here that could commit exclusively to running a "Lyceum" type operation, things might turn out differently. But until then, I'm going to be extremely skeptical of the notion that casual contributors can impact our project in any meaningful way.

Why do I feel you hate the idea of helping to educate our community just because the likes of White Warlock suggested it? It's a bloody good idea and why on earth do you feel it needs "exclusive" attention?? All people need to do is pool their links and check it on occasion for any njub questions on how to do stuff. Most people have real lives to attend to so free time is limited. Help them maximize that time to get over the learning curve so they can contribute to the community.

The current mindset hasn't and won't draw flies.

Kate

http://mzonline.com/bin/view/Python/SpotTheBraincell

[JaydeMoon]

I think we should spew vitriol at each other over this subject because THAT is what's going to help the situation.

It's been the oil that keeps things flowing in ALFA all along, right?

How about both points are valid. Builder's already on the verge of burn out simply cannot be expected to put energy and effort into helping people who refuse to help themselves.

But we should not rule out training and teaching interested parties, even if their input may be only casual at best. And we should especially not rule out contributions outside of the toolset, ESPECIALLY if specific builders are asking for it.

Aelred has stated that he would WELCOME content outside of the bounds of the toolset.

Again, I think it's a matter of coordination. Put someone or a group of someones together that casual contributors can talk to, whether to give their ideas or to see what's needed.

I'd take the lead on that if I weren't in a tight RL situation at the moment, and if no one else does once things stabilize for me, I'd be glad to. In the meantime, a lot of the people with opinions in this thread seem like good candidates.

[JaydeMoon]

[EDIT: I was so passionate about that, I posted it twice!]

[MorbidKate]

How about both points are valid. Builder's already on the verge of burn out simply cannot be expected to put energy and effort into helping people who refuse to help themselves.

I've spoken with a lot of people about the toolset and the common complaint is that they quickly became frustrated trying to learn and gave up. That is hardly a "refusal" to help themselves. Many ALFAns want to help out as they have in the past but are simply overwhelmed. Most are not programmers or have a technical mindset. What they do have is creative talent.

A central knowledge base of How To guides seems a no brainer to me since it can only draw benefits and should have been out there from the get-go. Posting that the complexity of the Toolset is a good way to keep the uncommitted away is just foolish and short-sighted.

The only way you'll get the talent pool deep enough is to draw upon the casual builders in NWN1 that haven't had the time needed to learn the new toolset on their own or the time and patience neeed to get over that steep learning curve. Give folks the tools and advice they need and more people will start to sign up.

Kate

[FanaticusIncendi]

Alrighty well here's my 0.02 FWIW:


8 months ago the only thing I could do in the toolset (NWN1) was make clothes. After I began DMing on Sembia I realized there were lots of things I wanted for my plots and if I was going to have them I would have to make them myself.

Reluctantly, not wanting to spend the time or experience the frustration, I dragged my arse into the toolset. Luckily for me I had Electryc coaching me along and several others in chat like Brokenbone who I bugged relentlessly for help.

Now, I build lots of stuff and am starting to venture into scripting.

If there had been some sort of user-friendly (ie in a language i can speak, which is to say not geek) and easy to access tooling help nicely documented in the forums somewhere I would probably have started tooling a lot sooner.

If I was not the outgoing, pain-in-the-ass, ready to ask a million questions kind of person I am, I probably would have quickly given up on the whole thing pretty quick.

My point is two-fold:

1. Not everyone is as willing to pester people for help as I am. Some don't know who to ask and others are just downright shy. That doesn't mean they wouldn't love to build, and if there was a clearly documented, easy to follow guidance system "toolsetting for dummies" I bet they would make use of it.

2. People don't need to sign a contract of commitment in blood to be a useful contributor to the project. I consider myself a casual builder. I'm certainly not about to sign on to a build "team" or take on the construction of a server, but I help when I can, where I can, and have made some nice contributions to my server, without burning anyone out (i don't think!)

Now as far as me and NWN2, right now I am too busy in RL and with contributing as a DM and Admissions staff to even consider taking on learning the new toolset. In 3 months or so I may be willing to step up and take on some NWN2 tooling.

However, the NWN2 toolset is daunting, and i'll be damned if i'm going to spend my precious time through trial and error figuring out what others already have, or looking online for tutorials.

Make a list of what's needed.
Make a "NWN2 toolset for dummies"

People like me will step up and make stuff.

[indio]

Calling cipher foolish and short sighted is foolish and short sighted, and not only because I agree with his analysis, but because we can ill-afford to lose him, or any of the 9 or 10 people actually making ALFA2 a possibility.

Look, seriously ALFAns, most people won't built, ever, period, and the number of people who say they will but never do will always outnumber those who simply do. It really doesn't matter.

What does matter is support. Symbolic support, if not practical toolsetting support. Just get behind the builders and admin. Take a fricken interest. Don't start bitching about us in these threads.

This is where Dan springs to mind. He's not a bad guy, but he doesn't understand support. He'd as soon tell us how badly we'll fail as he would tell us he likes what we're doing.

If you're still with ALFA, can you bloody well support people like Aelred and cipher and AL please? I'll keep building, but I've been doing this for a long time now and have had my share of dramas. These guys haven't, and don't imagine for a second the sort of nonsene in this thread won't succeed in making them question just why they're bothering.

[NickD]

@NickD: If you really want to help build something, pick a server, grab source materials (like interior maps or descriptions), and take a stroll down toolset lane. Or if you want your work to be truly appreciated by all, put together some generic interiors, like inns, taverns, shops, shrines/temples, homes, keeps, and so on. The details are really up to you and your imagination, which is what this game is all about.

My point is, I'd need to know what the builders actually want, and more than just "whack up some interiors that you feel like making", before I'd start investing my time in something that people might not even want. Interiors can vary in style quite vastly over different servers. Some might like the tardis effect, some might prefer all interiors to be 1 tile. I'd like to know what side to put the door on, because I tend to notice if I enter an area from the north outside, but arrive on the west on the inside. I could make a temple, but no servers have that temple in canon in any of the areas they are planning on building within the next 3 years.

Basically, what Aelred posted about the Green Door Inn, but with a bit more information in regards to compatibility with his own vision.

[Aelred]

I'll take on the initial "how to" posts in the NWN2: Toolsetting thread as soon as an Admin approves it and creates the new thread header. Could somebody please tell me who I should be contacting?

I don't have scripting knowledge so I shouldn't be in charge of the NWN2: Scripting thread . Although I already have a few excellent links for learning scripting saved in my favs.

[JaydeMoon]

At the risk of repeating myself, my point, Kate, is that:

Builders already on the verge of burn out simply cannot be expected to put energy and effort into helping people that refuse to help themselves.

That doesn't mean that ALFA as a community should not pick up the slack there. That doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to put up 'How-to' guides.

Nor does it mean that the people you have spoken to are the type of people who are 'refusing to help themselves'.

However, it appears to me that Cipher is mostly speaking about people who are relying on him to tell them how to do it and then, just as he's spent time imparting that knowledge, he learns that they end up not helping. But maybe I'm mistaking him and really what he's saying is "Screw all you casual contributors, NONE OF YOU have anything to offer this project."

But I don't think that's what he is trying to communicate.

In any case, I think, jibes at Cipher aside, you are spot on in your own ideas, Kate, about how people can help. I just don't think we should rely on those guys already up to their necks in building to have to show them how. Others can tackle that job.

[NickD]

As long as builders insist on working strictly on their corner of Faerun, the one-or-two person build team is going to be the reality. Thus far, on the whole, we have been largely unable to compromise despite a number of attempts to narrow our collective focus, and as a result, I think it's increasingly likely that we each will fail to meet our own own goals.

This project is really in a no win situation. Either force people to work together and watch people storm out, or let people do what they want and watch build teams wither on the vine. One is no worse than the other. It's a Darwinian catch 22. *shrug*

Yeah...

It would have been nice if we could have had at least a fully co-operative single first server. Would have been done by now, I'm sure, and would have sped up development of every server after it.

But that horse has well and truely been beaten past the point of death.

[MorbidKate]

Calling cipher foolish and short sighted is foolish and short sighted, and not only because I agree with his analysis, but because we can ill-afford to lose him, or any of the 9 or 10 people actually making ALFA2 a possibility.

Funny thing is, by helping out the folks who want to build you'll actually get the help your asking for. As it stands now, most NWN1 builders are not building in NWN2 because of the complexity of the toolset so suggesting most ALFAns never have or never will build is simply wrong. And suggesting the Toolset should be a weaning tool and that being a good thing is what has you shorthanded in the first place.

I almost burned out from a total redo of 3/4 of TPI so I fully understand the frustration the current builders are going through. Which is why offering in-house help and advice can only be a good thing in recruiting more builders to help out.

Kate