Changes you might like to know concerning NWN 2 ALFA!

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PensivesWetness
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Post by PensivesWetness »

hollyfant wrote:
Swift wrote:This is probably not the official reason, but the implementation of it is just horrible from a smooth game play standpoint
While true, that's only a good reason to advice against it. If uselessness were a reason to cut things out of ALFA, then there are a few other things that warrant "protective banning". Like Parry, Eldritch Blast or Lightfoot Halflings...
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White Warlock
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Post by White Warlock »

Had a long discussion with a member that never visits the forums. He's upset because he just found out about the level 1 toughness restriction. His dwarf is level 5, and he had planned all along for a dwarven defender. I told him to contact a DM for a rebuild. Unfortunately, he says he hardly ever sees a DM and would rather take up their time roleplaying so he's going to trash the character.

The Toughness restriction to level 1 needs to be removed. It penalizes members who don't know about this very odd restriction, and puts DMs in a situation where they have to spend time helping a person 'rebuild' their character.

It creates a problem for new members, uninformed members, and DMs and serves no good function. NWN2 game mechanics are what many people are accustomed to. Many of the D&D 3.5 game mechanics cannot be properly duplicated here, so when it cannot be duplicated, it should be left as is. Nerfing something in NWN2, which isn't nerfed in 3.5, is counterproductive and confusing to players.

Admins, please promptly reverse the changes made by previous administrations. It's obvious they made these changes just because they felt like it. Please put the players first when examining things like Toughness, Circle Kick, PRCs, and ECLs. The idea is to enjoy the game, not to frustrate the members. I'm sure you agree.
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NickD
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Post by NickD »

Get him to take 1 level of Cleric. Moradin, Earth Doman *voila* Toughness. :shock: ;)
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Post by Veilan »

I know, and have stated, that the previous DM Administration intended to fully consider our own alterations to the game when defining the final PrC requirements, possibly scrapping the toughness requirement for dwarven defenders, for instance (note that I was in favour of killing many of the nasty free cleric feats too, especially those with abilities we made inaccessible through other means, like DR). I'm not sure what the consortium of folks that decided to just use the vanilla NWN 2 adaptions did in that respect, so I'm afraid I can't help you here. I have to say, though, that the toughness restriction was publicised and stickied from day one, so the "I didn't know" argument seems flimsy. Imagine he'd have violated a rule on the server he plays on - then, also, ignorance is no real excuse. I'm quite sure a helpful DM may offer him his rebuild, however I reject the general notion that we cannot require a miminum of self-informing by members.
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Post by White Warlock »

Veilan wrote:I have to say, though, that the toughness restriction was publicised and stickied from day one, so the "I didn't know" argument seems flimsy.
Not at all, and i don't see the reason to attack the player like this. You want the player to go somewhere else because you think he's lying to me? Is this the same Veilan i used to know some years back? Hello? You still in there somewhere?

Not everyone visits the forums, nor is it a requirement to do so. These forums are overloaded with subforums and have way too many 'vague titled' stickies. There is no information on the wiki about it, and the APM does not indicate it.

But, more important than any of this... it's a problem for both players and DMs. It does not serve a useful purpose, it only creates a problem and restricts a pc from becoming a dwarven defender if he chooses to become one "after" initial creation. This goes counter to ALFA's recommendations to allow PCs to develop in time, rather than PG-develop the character construct far in advance.
Imagine he'd have violated a rule on the server he plays on - then, also, ignorance is no real excuse. I'm quite sure a helpful DM may offer him his rebuild, however I reject the general notion that we cannot require a minimum of self-informing by members.
You're absolutely right Veilan, everyone should find this sticky, buried in this forum, and find in it a very small sentence indicating toughness is available at level 1 only. Let's ban him for having the audacity to question the status quo.

Oh hey, what-ya know, this thread isn't stickied. I found it using the search tool. :roll:
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Post by White Warlock »

NickD wrote:Get him to take 1 level of Cleric. Moradin, Earth Doman *voila* Toughness. :shock: ;)
Hehe, unfortunately that is in violation of the rules -- Section 2.5.1 Powergaming Character Concepts ( http://www.alandfaraway.org/docs/General/RulesIG ), and thus a bannable offense.
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Post by danielmn »

I suppose a list of what has changed can be put in the OOC starting room on TSM and any other live server to come in order to inform players of the specific changes that have been made. I know a form of this has been utilized on oas1 and oas2, as well as nwn1 servers (I know for sure SD and DD had bunches of info, sembia and nc a little bit as well). Something to consider I suppose.
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Post by Veilan »

White Warlock wrote:
Veilan wrote:I have to say, though, that the toughness restriction was publicised and stickied from day one, so the "I didn't know" argument seems flimsy.
Not at all, and i don't see the reason to attack the player like this. You want the player to go somewhere else because you think he's lying to me? Is this the same Veilan i used to know some years back? Hello? You still in there somewhere?

Not everyone visits the forums, nor is it a requirement to do so. These forums are overloaded with subforums and have way too many 'vague titled' stickies. There is no information on the wiki about it, and the APM does not indicate it.
Mate, read what I've written. I didn't imply he lied, I said your argument for rolling back the whole change, because a member didn't know, was flimsy. I do not doubt he genuinely didn't know - but I find the connection between that and your suggestion of tossing overboard our game balancing mechanics very tenuous. I'd appreciate it if you would not purposefully misrepresent my statements to imply I'm somehow "attacking" the player, whom I think to be a totally innocent party in this.
White Warlock wrote:You're absolutely right Veilan, everyone should find this sticky, buried in this forum, and find in it a very small sentence indicating toughness is available at level 1 only. Let's ban him for having the audacity to question the status quo.

Oh hey, what-ya know, this thread isn't stickied. I found it using the search tool. :roll:
Y'know, that's not the tone to have an argument in, is it, especially since you deal with positions noone in this thread has taken.

Calm down, take a breath. I told you I was always in favour of letting our PrC restrictions reflect our game mechanics. My solution would have been: scrap toughness requirement from DD. The guys who took over after Rusty didn't seem to like that, so here we are.

Secondly, I'm very much certain a DM will find the time to see if he should get a rebuild for this purpose, and roll with it. Noone's going to rag on the player for anything - there are many instances where this whole process could have been handled better, you demonising me or trying to blame any single link in the chain is not going to help, is it?

So, take a breather, I'm sure this'll be sorted out.
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Post by Veilan »

danielmn wrote:I suppose a list of what has changed can be put in the OOC starting room
That'd be great - at the very least, people can go "guh!" and reroll, though it'd still be also great if the APM and other documents were also updated.
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Post by fluffmonster »

There's too much information on the forums...saying that something is clearly posted is like saying one can clearly see a particular tree in a forest. We need to stick with the APM as a central rules resource for players, required reading even. If the provision is not in the APM, then its not clear.
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Post by Veilan »

Yeah, a central, all-inclusive document would be awesome, but probably at this point, that's a Sysyphus travail.

Anyway if PA wants to attempt it for the APM, I'll gladly help as best as possible.
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Post by Demson »

In the ALFA Player Manual (in the wiki):

http://www.alandfaraway.org/docs/Player/APMToughness

As far as I am aware the last PA has kept it up-to-date. The APM has been adjusted on the changes made since I became PA.

Could the player in question please take up contact with me on this? Thank you.

I realise the information distribution of the current website and forum is an issue. Zicada has an effort underway for a new website and this is one of the things we will look into.
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Post by White Warlock »

Hehe, cute. Now go here -- http://www.alandfaraway.org/docs/General/General

Two different presentations of the APM on the wiki. One in the Player submenu, the other in the General submenu.

Seriously, this is ridiculous. I can't see anyone, other than the person, or persons, who entered all that information, being full-up on all of it.


And no Veilan, my argument is not even remotely flimsy. The change was arbitrary, no reasonable counter-argument has been presented, you even indicated they were thinking (or planning) on changing the Dwarven Defender PRC to not have that toughness dependency but failed to do so, and in the meantime players who click on the wrong link get outdated information about this community's policies, while a DM has to spend UNFUN 'hours' helping a person 'rebuild' their PC. That's assuming the player doesn't get disenchanted and walks away, or the DM doesn't get disgusted and does the same.

Reinstall Toughness, let's stop all this unnecessary tweaking, and focus on the bigger issues. And, above all else, when changes are made... think of the consequences for every step of the way. How will players react, how will it impact the DMs, etc. The project is to recreate Faerun, not replicate the 3.5 rulebooks. This project has gotten itself muddled in eccentricities.
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Post by Demson »

The APM link in general has been updated.

Thank you for pointing it out, WW.
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Post by Vendrin »

Or you could just allow toughness to be taken after lv1. There's no real reason for it not to be, it didn't cause issues in ALFA1
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