Amn PC's

[Heero]

My suggestion is merely that: a suggestion. I think it fair, but if others dont, so be it. Again, no one is forced to play with anyone else so if people have problems with these Exo PC (of which it seems Adanu is the only really wishing to make the transfer), they can simply ignore.

[I-KP]

I read people complaining it isnt fair that these new PCs are going to get stuff that they had outside of ALFA. Isnt that how you read it?

The same people who were objecting to the bridging of Exo and ALFA, I presume? Well, fortunately they were in the minority and that effort was going ahead anyway. This is the final leg of that self same journey.

Again, no one is forced to play with anyone else so if people have problems with these Exo PC (of which it seems Adanu is the only really wishing to make the transfer), they can simply ignore.

Can't argue with that. As I said before, I'd be surprised if as many as six PCs were rebuilt.

[Greasemang]

Okay, so I've generally stayed out of this conversation, being that I can't plainly make up my mind to if I'd take this option if I had it. I'd at least have to consider it, but probably not. I think I've seen a lot of the controversies that have been brought up here in advance, so I've shied away from the topic, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were effectively infeasible to pull off. However, I just wanted to say...

ALFA members cannot be disadvantaged for not having left to play in a project that was specifically designed to break with ALFA.

This general sentiment, re; "Alfa splinter project" seems more than a little intellectually dishonest at this point. A good deal of Alfans who played there would have had no idea Exodus existed at all if it hadn't been declared a sister server, as well as there being a couple Alfans who were brought over from Exodus for much the same. Alfa already decided to bridge that particular gap between the servers; calling upon the old relationship just for this one issue seems a little too convenient.

[kid]

I'll ask again, if ALFA and Exo would have merged back then, We would had no problem with Exo people bringing thier toons over. Why has that changed just because we are now in a position of power?

We know Exo and we were willing to take them on, what changed?

[Rumple C]

I dont see how a handful of "new" pcs should cheapen anyone elses experiences, particuarly if may bring in some new blood to alfa2, which due to the aging nature of the game (and its players!) could surely use both numbers and fresh DNA.

From an ic perspective, it makes no difference at all if somewhere in the ALFA world a "being" pops up at nth level.

From an ooc perspective? Well, I never played there myself (but was looking at it due to some friends transitioning before I burnt out), but from all accounts it shared similar values, perhaps even harsher in the aspects of XP and wealth gain. Yes it wasn't done under the ALFA flag, but the same spirit was there, and we will soon be reaping the benefits of the AMN server. So these levelled pc's were not cheaply earnt. The only real difference that I can see is that they started at level 3? Ok, so an easy fix, transition/rebuild/whatever them -3000xp.

From a tech perspective - (ok, not my field of expertise, and I have great respect for the often under-appreciated, and over subscribed tech team), but if there is a DM volunteer who is willing to shoulder the brunt of the work, then that only leaves the issue of how the xp tracking scripts will be affected by pcs springing up with X amount of XP and 0 hours?

(Me waits to be corrected)

Ok, it would throw out ratios of sure, but if a register of Exodus PC's is kept with their transition info then calculations could still be done manually. EG PC John Exo came over with 10,000 xp at 0 hours. He is now at 11,000 at 40 hours of life, so 1,000 xp gain over 40 hours = whatever.

As personal suggestions - I would suggest leaving Exodus players wealth as it was (items can be exchanged for comparable alfa legal items). If wealth is under recomended guidelines then if a DM so feels, it could be brought up over time. I do think that any exo pc's who have excessive sway over the AMN server through connections/political station etc should be reviewed carefuly, and perhaps have that aspect curtailed somewhat.

We all have the same passion here for the project, if different visions of how to make it work...

so...

I hope everyone can keep the discussion calm, respectful, and non personal, like the adults we pretend to be. Except in IRC.

[I-KP]

I'll ask again, if ALFA and Exo would have merged back then, We would had no problem with Exo people bringing thier toons over. Why has that changed just because we are now in a position of power?

We know Exo and we were willing to take them on, what changed?

I don't think anything has changed; the poll results are roughly similar to the original support behind bridging Exo and ALFA, and that effort got under way.

[Veilan]

Just to put this into perspective, at the time this journey was agreed upon, the "no carryover" was agreed upon also, so it's not like there's an obligation to what we're doing now. The revisiting of this topic, and us agreeing to discuss it again and polling the membership, alone is a step that shows how committed we are to trying to make Ex-Exodites feel welcome and how seriously the concerns of any current member are taken.

I'd please reconsider scoffing at what is extended so far, as it is a great way to alienate those among us who are sympathetic to the cause, such as me - I was the first Admin to offer a deviation from our agreed-upon ruling, and came up with a compromise of making a big-bang festivity event, celebrating all the stuff we can upon the Amn relaunch, combined with an open server weekend, where everyone got the chance to start level 3 / existing ALFAns would get the xp if they choose not to reroll. This offer was, well, derided. I still think it was fair to everyone and pretty generous, seeing that we went from offering 1 to offering 3. It feels a lot like extending a finger just to see your arm get chopped off, for me.

Now, I think that both sides here have valid concerns. ALFAns want to be treated fairly - and even if it is only Zelknolf openly speaking about her misgivings, her points are based on facts and prior agreements and cannot be just dismissed. On the other hand, just saying "hahaha, suck it!" seems unnecessarily cruel and, as I said before, is neither constructive nor helpful. We choose to embrace Exodus, and finding a way to maintain the stories from there that is palatable and fair does stand to gain this project something.

However, the possibility that the "full monty" may not be granted and that we have to settle on some form of workable compromise is there - and I'd ask to help us find something that everyone can live with. This really is a bit of seeing the glass as half empty, when the factual position is that you started with an empty glass - the full glass of Exodus was not spilt by us, and ALFA in no way is responsible for any other project's continuity. The team that took it upon them, very laudably, to work to get Amn into the ALFA fold again, knew this, and accepted this - and I'm personally very much looking forward to exploring Amn, even though I cannot go there to comfy established relationships with NPCs and DMs.

So, a little less bile from both sides, and a little more pragmatism, would probably serve us all the best now. I think some cornerstones could be for instance, the thing I initially propsed about "nothing above what you got in ALFA" thing - if you're level 5 in ALFA, your Amnian is level 5 tops. Also, if we go with such a scheme, we need to give something like that to ALFAn's too - which I believe noone should complain about under the circumstances, though it might be a little weird if many people took the opportunity at once. But, still - why should we deny Zelknolf the option to swap for her described character? Because she choose to play in the wrong not-ALFA project? That would seem, well, as petty as denying people a chance to continue their beloved storylines in some fashion.

Ah well. Let's find some common ground somewhere instead of treating this as an adversarial debate? We're all here to have fun, and that - let's acknowledge that fairness is necessary for fun, but that fun also means getting to play a beloved character and storyline, and work from there.

Cheers,

[Adanu]

But, still - why should we deny Zelknolf the option to swap for her described character? Because she choose to play in the wrong not-ALFA project? That would seem, well, as petty as denying people a chance to continue their beloved storylines in some fashion.

YOu're not going to get less bile because some people just don't get it.

Exodus made an effort to extend a hand to ALFA after all the 'core' members with grievances left. I, personally, didn't know about ALFA or cared too much to find other places like Exodus until I heard it mentioned in IRC one day and I didn't pay much mind. It wasn't until later I heard about the breakaway and how similar the two are, and that is why I decided to make a PC. It was only good fortune that mirabai and jayde campaign was just started and that a 'bodyguard' type character was accaptable. I had wanted to play a fighter type, so Zyrus was born.

The talk about it 'not being fair' for characters to get 'free xp and loot' is ridiculous, since every single PC went through a ton of crap on Exodus to get anything. Damien himself crafted or looted every a long quest chain for all of his gear. Most of it took a couple years to get because of the low gold rate. The only difference is that it was on another server. The 'spirit' of slow leveling and gear earning is the same.

[Keryn]

Well Veilan the difference is that ALFA did not name whatever project Zelk played on as a sister project, nor any other project. Nor can we due to a lot of complications investigate these situations.

We embraced Exodus, we decided this, and by doing it we made Exodus special. This is a fact no one can deny. There was in our forum a link directly to Exodus.

Reading some posts, its obvious some folks didn't agreed with the above, and now express vehemently their opposition. Zelk has made her case, and obviously we are not forced to agree in all things with each other. But I do not find anything constructive in continuously refer to Exodus as a splinter, a failed project, a PW begging for help after leaving ALFA when it was started.

It is very disheartening to see folks tossing rocks at the players who played in Exodus, just because somehow that is a failed project. So what? Someone in the past decided to break away from ALFA, those persons are not in Exodus anymore, and those that kept the project going had such a different perspective from the creators of Exodus that the idea of bridging Amn with ALFA was mentioned, more then a dream, it was something possible.

If we didn't want them, we should have declined making Exodus a sister project. So the comparison with allowing all ALFANs do import characters from other server is just pure non-sense.

What we have here over the table is a chance to add some players to ALFA ranks. 3 or 4? Well if they were regulars in Exodus, they will most likely be regulars in ALFA, and thats 3 or 4 more players then we have now. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

They will show up playing lvl 6 PCs? What is the problem with this? We also will have a new world, that no one could play before, NPCs move from place to place and so do PCs.
I have not met every single PC in ALFA, and if I met a toon that was created in MS and is lvl 6, how will that ruin the fun for me? If the toon was played since lvl 1 in MS, and lvled to 6 in MS while I played in TSM, when we meet and the lvls will be there.
Happens all the time!
whats the difference that these toons were rolled in Amn and not in MS? Well the only difference is that when they were rolled Amn was not yet part of ALFA, but in the moment it becomes part of ALFA, and in the moment that ALFA embraces Exodus, we owe these players the chance to play their toons if they don't go against ALFA pillars, 1 PC per player, etc..etc.. That is my opinion.

ALFA will only win more players. None of us loses anything.
its not like we will be invaded by lvl 17 PCs kitted to the bone...

[Swift]

I will simply feel sorry for any new players that arrive around the time Amn goes live who we will have to explain to why these people get to start playing in ALFA with level 3+ characters while they have to start at level 1 like every other ALFAn has to. Or, should it be the case, why these players are allowed to play an extraordinary PC without having to go through the same process of applying for it like every other ALFAn. These things are not easily explained to players new to our community, nor does it sound remotely fair.

Elevating anyone sets a dangerous precedence, regardless of how 'special' the circumstances are.

Edit: it also raises another question. For the players in this community that played on both servers, would this mean they are essentially given an already leveled character if they choose to temp retire their ALFA PC?

[Dorn]

Ok, i may be missing something but.

a) It seems much of the discussion is about this being the right or the wrong thing to do as per the pole.

b) For those offering a solution, there seems to be a general trend that if the answer is 'yes' the mechanism shoudl be close to:

- have them rebuild from scratch so no tech nrequirement (ALFA:Amn Dm team)
- give them their Amn level and -6000exp for the level 3 start
- have a DM given them 'approximate' item replacement (ALFA:Amn DM team)
- have their wealth not exceed the 'low' category for their new ALFA level (given many ALFAns are well below the low end)

and my addition

- given some of the concerns rasied about the fact there's been little risk and that they've gained positions within the 'world' of Amn with great influence, have a genuine chat with them about maybe resetting their position in society so as not to hold power over or disavantage ALFAns. HDMs and admin are sensible, as are players, and we should trust them to do this appropraitely.

I'd suggest Curm and DanM oversee the process and make executive deciisons on anything questionable.

So the players might feel a bit miffed, but given (as Veilan pointed out) weve made a late change to even consider the transfer i'm sure they'll be adult about it.

The extent of the rebuilt time is up to DMs and overseeing admin....all who we trust.

Noone in alfa should feel they have an advantage.

Hopefully this means zero tech input given the huge amount of work they've had to put into the server.

So maybe admin shoudl come to a landing on the 'transfer' proccess and then pole that?

[Adanu]

I will simply feel sorry for any new players that arrive around the time Amn goes live who we will have to explain to why these people get to start playing in ALFA with level 3+ characters while they have to start at level 1 like every other ALFAn has to. Or, should it be the case, why these players are allowed to play an extraordinary PC without having to go through the same process of applying for it like every other ALFAn. These things are not easily explained to players new to our community, nor does it sound remotely fair.

Elevating anyone sets a dangerous precedence, regardless of how 'special' the circumstances are.

Edit: it also raises another question. For the players in this community that played on both servers, would this mean they are essentially given an already leveled character if they choose to temp retire their ALFA PC?

You're creating strawmen where there aren't any, swift.

Fact is, Exodus was a -in ALFAs forums own words- a sister project once the grievances of the past were thrown away. If they cannot handle that people put time and effort into these 'new' PCs, I'd call them short sighted. Like it or not, all Exodus PCs who got anywhere did so with time, resources, and work. Same as any ALFA PC. Same implications, just different servers.

I feel sorry for you if you think that Exodus PCs have some sort of miraculous advantage over ALFA PCs.

[I-KP]

Well Veilan the difference is that ALFA did not name whatever project Zelk played on as a sister project, nor any other project. Nor can we due to a lot of complications investigate these situations.

It also isn't a project that the owners of which are merging with ALFA, which should render the concern unwarranted based on that fact alone. When and if a merger does occur then be all means offer Zelk (and those in a similar position) the option of rebuild adhering to the same strictures that Exo:Amn PC rebuilds may end up conforming to – that would, after all, be the fair thing to do.

It is very disheartening to see folks tossing rocks at the players who played in Exodus, just because somehow that is a failed project.

Agreed. To date I’ve spent pretty much the same amount of time playing ALFA as I did playing Exodus and I’ve now been exposed to opinion from both sides of the ‘fence’ in equal measure. I have to say that whilst there was undeniably some animosity towards ALFA in Exodus, animosity the likes of new-ish players like me didn’t understand I might add, but that pales into insignificance compared to some of the indiscriminate foul attitudes I’ve bumped into on ALFA; in short, ALFA by far carries the largest chip on its shoulder. Whatever the guys who created Exodus all those years ago did it must have been truly terrible. (I’m only disappointed that I missed the forum maelstrom that must have resulted – I do enjoy a good scrap!)

Bury the hatchet. Concentrate on what makes ALFA better and don’t waste energy on trying to fight battles that don’t exist anymore. After all, it takes the bigger man to show magnanimity in victory. Move on.

I will simply feel sorry for any new players that arrive around the time Amn goes live who we will have to explain to why these people get to start playing in ALFA with level 3+ characters while they have to start at level 1 like every other ALFAn has to. Or, should it be the case, why these players are allowed to play an extraordinary PC without having to go through the same process of applying for it like every other ALFAn. These things are not easily explained to players new to our community, nor does it sound remotely fair.

Firstly, they’ve not started at lvl3+ at all (okay, some did start at lvl 3 but the proposed 3000XP rebuild tax solves that issue); they’ve shed sweat and blood every bit as much as any ALFAn has, more so in many cases, under near as damn it identical conditions. If that point isn’t clear by now then I don’t know how else to explain it. Explaining that to a new player wouldn’t be difficult either: Exodus was ideologically and practically all but indistinguishable from any other ALFAn server, it just wasn’t bridged (yet – at that time). I seriously doubt that any new players would question this anyway.

Secondly, I don’t think anyone is suggesting that extraordinary characters would be rebuilt without them first meeting ALFA’s extraordinary character requirements. Besides, the requirements were in all likelihood stricter on Exodus what with Amn being a fiercely xenophobic nation. In all of my time playing Exodus I think I met two extraordinary PCs; here on ALFA I've met many, many more than that. Chances are better than good that none of the players taking up this rebuild offer, if it is extended, would be for an extraordinary PC. If it is, then ensure they meet ALFA’s requirements first. That would be the fair thing to do.

- give them their Amn level and -6000exp for the level 3 start

Minus 3000, if that character started at lvl3. (The lvl 3 start was a relatively late game installation IIRC.) Teez and Boggy will know that.

So the players might feel a bit miffed, but given (as Veilan pointed out) weve made a late change to even consider the transfer i'm sure they'll be adult about it.

Indeed. A willingness to be flexible would be important.


I still expect that almost nothing will come from any of this; there doesn’t yet seem to be even a few people wanting to rebuild an Exo:Amn PC. Even if some do grab hold of the opportunity, should it be offered, I expect they’d still be made to feel like second class citizens by a bitter minority herein. If I was considering rebuilding my old Exo:Amn PC I’d think twice about it after having read this thread. As an ALFAn -- I’ve been here for over two years, I think that’s enough time to earn my stripes -- I’m a little bit embarrassed by that.

Anyway, I’m only still in this thread for the hypotheticals. Do carry on.

[puny]

this might be a unnecessary question that already have been clarified in all the walls of texts, so im sorry if im just repeat things.

For those that will take up this offer. will their current PCs be considered retired or temp -retired?

[Zelknolf]

There is no policy right now, Puny. It could plausibly be either or something else entirely.

Speculating on what the details of it would be if there was one will spread misinformation.