NWN2 Planetouched - opinions

[Mayhem]

Mayhem:

But some folks want to have their cake (ECL race) and eat it (complaints about taking too long to level) too.

This is inaccurate. I believe I am and have been the foremost proponent of drow in ALFA and I have no complaints about the current system in NWN2 which requires that a drow PC gain 6000 exp to get its second hit-dice. Indeed, the current system, which is the "out of the box" system was something I (and others) suggested for its simplicity. Trying to paint we supporters of ECL races as grasping, greedy and ungrateful is misleading, insulting, and incorrect.

Perhaps I imagined all the threads about accelerated levelling. Note Mik, I didn't accuse you of anything, just said that it had happened, and that is a factual statement that I rather hope you do not intend to deny.

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All of which is irrelevant to the only point I wanted to make in this thread - that the argument "Use the FRCS RAW, and the RAW says we can have Planetouched" is bunk, unless we start at sufficient character level to let all of the proposed ECL races be played, which would probably be about L5.

As long as ECL players - even those on servers dedicated, in the main, to ECL races, get XP at the same rate as everyone else, I'm quite happy with letting them in under the base NWN2 engine. I'd personally prefer to use the lesser races option, but I know that you (Mik) are an extemely strong opponent of that.

[Mulu]

Well, Mik brings up an interesting point. How are these races treated now in 4e? Is it a better system?

[Mikayla]

Mayhem:

Perhaps I imagined all the threads about accelerated levelling. Note Mik, I didn't accuse you of anything, just said that it had happened, and that is a factual statement that I rather hope you do not intend to deny.

Um, I supported the ideas put forth (by others, including Rusty of all people) to use Sum*LA*blah*blah whatever, which would accelerate leveling for ECL folks ... AND ... I supported the out of the box method. Your "factual" statement implied that we (ECL supporters) wanted ECL without the attendant penalities, and that is not the case. To that extent, its not "factual." We ECL supporters are willing to live with the attendant penalties (and, if playing drow, that means spending 600% more time with 1 hit-dice than non-ECL PCs).

Mayhem:

As long as ECL players - even those on servers dedicated, in the main, to ECL races, get XP at the same rate as everyone else, I'm quite happy with letting them in under the base NWN2 engine. I'd personally prefer to use the lesser races option, but I know that you (Mik) are an extemely strong opponent of that.

Great. I am an extremely strong opponent of the "lesser races" option, which I don't consider a legitimate option, but I agree on the first point - ECL races should get exp just like everyone else, and they should be penalized as per the out-of-the-box method, making their advancement very slow and dangerous to start with. I seriously doubt we will see any imbalancing effects in ALFA if we do those two things.

[Mikayla]

Mulu:

Well, Mik brings up an interesting point. How are these races treated now in 4e? Is it a better system?

The ECL races have been nerfed, due to the "spellplague". Now there is no such thing as LA or ECL. Most races get a "power" such as for Eladrin (the new name for Gold Elves basically) they can make a short teleport once a day. For drow, the sum totals of their powers are that they can either use darkness (good for 1 round) or fairie fire once an day (or once an encounter, I cannot remember which).

[psycho_leo]

And once again we go through all the same arguments for and against. ALFA amuses me greatly sometimes.

[Veilan]

Lesser Races and NWN 2 are both reasonable compromises, the former vastly preferable in terms of enjoyment for LA race levelling (no huge xp gap pain), and overall gameplay balance. Note that lesser races is DnD rule compliant, while NWN 2 is not - Mayhem is entirely correct in stating that LA races are, in PnP, only eligible in campaigns where their effective character level equals the minimum starting level.

And once again we go through all the same arguments for and against. ALFA amuses me greatly sometimes.

Indeed, I'm just going to re-quote this post (with citations where necessary) if required to save myself time and nerves .

[Vendrin]

Then don't argue Veilan. Despite your constant arguments against it, this argument keeps popping up for a reason. People want planetouched in. Hopefully one day we'll have an Admin who realize it and allows it.

[Zelknolf]

Then don't argue Veilan. Despite your constant arguments against it, this argument keeps popping up for a reason. People want planetouched in. Hopefully one day we'll have an Admin who realize it and allows it.

There're Klan rallies at least twice a year by where I live; it's proof that there're people who hate everyone who isn't non-hispanic caucasian and believe those of different racial backgrounds than themselves should have a lesser position in society. That doesn't make them right, nor does it make their proposal a good idea.

I would think that these debates would go much smoother if we talked about pros/cons of actual implementations. If it's that good of an idea -- and don't get me wrong; I think it is -- there's certainly an idea that can be defended by its merits alone out there. It even sounds like that's what Paazin and Acadius are working on.

Would think we'd accomplish the most with the route of explanation -> complication -> analysis -> evaluation, as opposed to the explanation -> complication -> drama -> deadlock we have now.

[psycho_leo]

this argument keeps popping up for a reason. People want planetouched in.

This can go either way though. Since it was put to a vote, the out of the box implementation isn't allowed because enough people didn't like it for some reason. Granted it wasn't a full membership vote, but still.

[Vendrin]

This can go either way though. Since it was put to a vote, the out of the box implementation isn't allowed because enough people didn't like it for some reason.

Every time their has been a full membership vote, the majority said yes, they wanted them in.

[ayergo]

As long as ECL players - even those on servers dedicated, in the main, to ECL races, get XP at the same rate as everyone else, I'm quite happy with letting them in under the base NWN2 engine.

I think this is a very appropriate opinion that deserves a +1.

[Mulu]

The ECL races have been nerfed, due to the "spellplague".

So they effectively went with the lesser races option for 4e. I know you hate it, but it does have it's merits, the primary one being balance.

Historically under 1e and 2e it was never an issue, as the races weren't playable. Those race powers were created back when the races were monsters only, so there were no playability issues.

I think the "out of the box" option works fine too, but I see the merit of the lesser races option. Apparently so did WOTC.

[Mikayla]

If and when we update to 4th edition, so be it, the new lesser version of drow et al shall be the norm. In the meantime, however, ALFA is not using 4th ed with all its powers and exploits and such, and thus cribbing its treatment of races is not appropriate. While a lesser race solution does exist as an option in 3.5, it does not accurately reflect the races as they are portrayed in the FRCS or the other canon materials. The NWN2 out of the box solution is simple and effective.

[Lusipher]

I agree with Mik its stupid not to put them in now. As usual ALFA is overreacting to something that could bring some fun to this place.

[Kest]

Do planetouched start at level one? Yes.

Ah, the "pretend the problem doesn't exist" argument.

Very sound.

A level 1 planetouched character, by the RAW, is a level 2 character. You know this as well as I do, I am sure.

ECL is not the same thing as levels. You are smugly arguing on a minor technicality and cannot seriously mean to say that a few advantages such as more stats, Darkvision, or the ability to cast Light five times a day paired with disadvantages such as less stats and more experience required to reach every level thereafter would make someone the equal of a level two character. That is absurd.

Actual levels are what matter.