NWN2 Planetouched - opinions

[JaydeMoon]

for when trusting players would just work as well.

Could something like this ever come to pass?


Just give em the thumbs up, already. Try it out as an experiment. You might be surprised by the results.

[danielmn]

Yeah, I can see why it hasn't come to fruition yet, I know a lot of work is involved...

I just figured as much contoversy and blah as this subject has caused, when it was finally given the thumbs up by Admin that a big deal would have been made about it...guess not.

[Vendrin]

Yeah, I can see why it hasn't come to fruition yet, I know a lot of work is involved...

I just figured as much controversy and blah as this subject has caused, when it was finally given the thumbs up by Admin that a big deal would have been made about it...guess not.

No huzzah was made because everyone realized that before that admin decision, previous admin had said all planetouched would be allowed, and that with this so called "approval" it was unlikely we would see any planetouched until Moonseas went live.

[Thangorn]

Lot of work, for when trusting players would just work as well.

QFT

I'd rather the community decide to implement all planetouched.. if they don't before Moonsea gets to Beta 2 then I can run the aforementioned trial. At the time I was rolling with the admin's wishes. I saw lots of bitching about it and nothing being done so I went ahead and put together a compliant (with the admin of the day) implementation plan.

And yes it will take time to get up... I'm hoping once people see the fruits of my labours in an alpha demo server in the coming weeks I'll get some more solid consistent support (not that the support of peeps like Mr Duncan, Racerblue and Indio hasnt already been fabulous) and hey if people dont like the pace of building on the Moonsea, there's a HDM throne I am reluctantly warming you can apply for. I'm sure there's plenty of people who have time/inclination to do a better job than me. Me, I like RL lots aswell..

[Mayhem]

Love them or hate them, planetouched exist in the Foregotten Realms Campaign books as playable races. As far as them being rare, isn’t it supposed to be rare to ever see a HIGHLY reclusive Wild Elf outside of anything except the oldest forests?

That is a very flawed argument - you make it sound as if including Planetouched should be the default.

It isn't.

The default is, we start at level 1. Technically, by default, ANY level adjusted race is therefore out of a players reach.

The tech teams and admin guys are bending over backwards to fit them into ALFA in a balanced fashion in for what is, frankly, a very minor payoff, so please try not to make it sound like the cut and dried obvious solution is your side of the argument.

It isn't.

[Kest]

The default is, we start at level 1. Technically, by default, ANY level adjusted race is therefore out of a players reach.

speaking of flawed arguments

[Dorn]

We COULD just invent a rule such as:

1) Max 5-10% of the active player base can be planetouched (keep down concerns of overpopulation, that would be 2-4 in TSM right now i think?).
2) To begin with they all have to be members (but evidenced good RPers from a discussion on that servers DM staff) of less than one year. (keep down concerns of nepotism) - decision of server DM team based on submitted bios including a short spiel on how they would play them/expect to be treated by other players (casting vote HDMs)

3) DMs keep an eye on them (well...duh!)

4) PA post some 'guidelines' (ie not rules) about playing them after discussion with lore legends like spider (we can all use mentoring).

5) If all good after 3 months open it up to HDM free reign and PA (thorugh alfa reps) keep an eye on things/complains as per existing processes. (good policies are tested beofre wide appication)

[dob85y]

Somehow i dont see a rush of players retiring long standing characters to run off and roll up a plane touched. If anyone has actually tried to play an ECL race on a slow advancment server then they will know as i do, the penaltys far outweigh the benifits. No new HP, AB or Skill points for at least 3000 xp, that alone puts you an pretty severe odds, and when you are relying on Static and DM exp to get you there it takes a long time. the next level after that is 6000xp, by now your "equals" are defeating foes that you fear to cross incase of a lucky crit that will kill you outright, cant say its a major appeal waiting to be exploited.

I am a fan of the drow, and i will be playing one when an underdark server is running, i will have to deal with the ECL when it happens but i cant see a huge rush of players throwing away their characters for that either.

[Mayhem]

The default is, we start at level 1. Technically, by default, ANY level adjusted race is therefore out of a players reach.

speaking of flawed arguments

A stunning rebuttal, that. Somewhat akin to shouting "I know you are but what am I."

Are Planetouched a level adjusted race? Yes.

Do Alfa characters start at Level 1? Yes.

If we accept those two facts, can we, by the PNP rules, have planetouched PCs? No.

Which part of my argument is flawed, Kest, in terms of ALFA?

There are some good reasons for including Planetouched PCs (allegedly) but "the book says..." isn't one of them.

****

Personally, my favoured fix is the use of "lesser" races, including "lesser" drow, which strips out all the issues of Level Adjustment straight away. But some folks want to have their cake (ECL race) and eat it (complaints about taking too long to level) too.

[Kest]

Do planetouched start at level one? Yes.

[oldgrayrogue]

Then you can simply put a paragraph in the players manual warning of this fact.

Works for me.

If you accept that planetouched require DM approval for the reasons stated, then you cannot logically allow drow, duergar, or any other ECL race without the same restrictions. Having twenty wild elves running around is pretty "unrealistic" too, but I don't see anyone arguing for that race being subjected to the approval process.

I disagree. Drow, duerger and wild elves are all established races with numerous populations, albeit in their respective habitations. My understanding may be flawed, I admit, but a tiefling AFAIK is an individual member of some established race that has a trace of devilish or demonic blood. Sort of a mutant. I don't believe there are large populations of tieflings living together as communities in cities or forests anywhere on or under Faerun, with their own societies, culture etc., (like drow, duerger or wild elves) but I may be wrong. So unless you are playing in planescape I think they are pretty rare from a numbers standpoint. Drow, duerger and wild elves are numerous, they just tend to stay in the underdark or in the deep forests, usually.

It seems that whenever something "new" is available to add to the game (PrCs, planetouched, etc.) there naturally follows months of debate and layers of bureaucracy that must be navigated to get it in the game. As most of the community consists of responsible RPers, put the new races in and trust people to play them properly.

This thread was created to solicit community opinion on the issue of planetouched races. I don't think anyone can honestly disagree that playing a tiefling, at least openly, can subject a player to consistent confrontation with other players and a high incidence of potential CvC -- just like playing a drow or duerger -- but those races are KOS aren't they? As I understand the rules, it is preferred that CvC be DM monitored. This creates a burden on the DM team -- unless tiefers are KOS (which is why I asked initially). It also creates the potential for a negative affect on immersion. If a tiefer walks through town whistling and swinging his tail and a mob forms to catch the "demon" and hang him and no DM is on, what then? ((Oops no DM on, no hanging today, kthxby)) and then everyone walks off on their merry way. I actually would have no problem with the above scenario personally. Others might. When these special races become very numerous, the issue becomes compounded.

And just to be clear, I don't think anyone has suggested some onerous beurocracy with a bunch of hoops to jump through to get to play a planetouched. Just a PM to the HDM of the server, which I am guessing most people do anyway with a new character. The only difference is that because that character, due to its nature, will likely engender much player attention, and may require much DM attention as a result, it must be approved by the HDM. I see it as a matter of common courtesy really.

[Brokenbone]

On point in part of Mayhem's posts, alternately, start all PCs with a few thousand experience, depending how high an ECL ends up permitted (call it ECL 2 for the sake of argument, yes that leaves ECL svirfs in the cold but it's just an example).

This'd mean a member of an ECL 0 race has enough XP to be 3rd.

This'd mean a member of an ECL 1 race has enough XP to be 2nd.

This'd mean a member of an ECL 2 race has enough XP to be 1st.

...

If you permitted up to ECL 3, the chart'd get an appropriate bump, ie.:

This'd mean a member of an ECL 0 race has enough XP to be 4th.

This'd mean a member of an ECL 1 race has enough XP to be 3rd.

This'd mean a member of an ECL 2 race has enough XP to be 2nd.

This'd mean a member of an ECL 3 race has enough XP to be 1st.

...

This is how one might choose to do it in PnP, i.e., where there's the flexibility to determine "0xp is not necessarily what people start with."

ALFA might choose to do it this way as well. Doubt it for all the drama and deciding whether level 1 is "almost a pillar", but it seems a valid option.

ECL does stand for an equivalency to level, where D&D considers the sum of actual levels + ECL levels to be the same as a set of actual levels. Overkill with the examples, but an ECL 1 character with 1 level in one character class, is considered equivalent to an ECL 0 character with 2 levels in one character class, plain and simple. Maybe if the equivalency is based on "who could kill the other if both locked in a room with no gear", or "who will survive a dungeon crawl better", at low levels people will point at the extra hitdice as huge unbalancers in the ECL 0 PC's favor, but after awhile (midlevel and on), all the lists of neat powers for ECL 1+become much more attractive in cases than a shortage of a few hitpoints compared to ECL 0 PCs. That's the ECL system though, like it or lump it (which is probably why compromise systems with their own weaknesses also exist... Lesser Races / Savage Species stuff).

[Mayhem]

Do planetouched start at level one? Yes.

Ah, the "pretend the problem doesn't exist" argument.

Very sound.

A level 1 planetouched character, by the RAW, is a level 2 character. You know this as well as I do, I am sure.

[Joos]

First of all, these so called "powerful" races, aren't more powerful at all. Since they are on an XP negative, compared to their non powerful brethren, they will always have less of what is really important in DnD 3.5: BAB and Hitpoints. You don't get high babs and hitpoints by choosing a "powerful race". You get high hitpoints and bab by making a standard race.

Sure, the "powerful races" get a few nifty features, like darkness for drow, or some or +2 dex for tieflings, etc, but since they loose out in long/medium run, it is inconsequential.

[Mikayla]

Mayhem:

But some folks want to have their cake (ECL race) and eat it (complaints about taking too long to level) too.

This is inaccurate. I believe I am and have been the foremost proponent of drow in ALFA and I have no complaints about the current system in NWN2 which requires that a drow PC gain 6000 exp to get its second hit-dice. Indeed, the current system, which is the "out of the box" system was something I (and others) suggested for its simplicity. Trying to paint we supporters of ECL races as grasping, greedy and ungrateful is misleading, insulting, and incorrect.

Also, the oft repeated idea that a drow with 1 class level is funcitonally equivalent to a PC with 3 class levels just because the book says it is, is dead wrong, for all the reasons mentioned by Joos - BAB, saves, skill-points, feats, class features, and oh yes, 300% more hit points. The ECL rules are broken - even the designers recognized this and did away with the concept.

And lets note - in neither NWN1 nor NWN2 has there been any problem with ECL races "taking over" ALFA, dominating ALFA game-play, or making non-ECL PCs unplayable. That simply has not ever happened in the 5+ years of ALFA's live exitence. Experience shows us that ECL characters will actually have a pretty small impact upon the world at large (with the exception of Daggerdale in the early days when new level 1 drow PCs spawned in the same place as regular PCs and were then hunted, chased, or freed depending upon the whim of the gathered PCs - and that had nothing to do with ECL).

Planetouched will be fine. ALFA will be a better place with them in, not a worse place. Let them in.