Oh Flowers of Stoland

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orangetree
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by orangetree »

Hialmar wrote:What about Switzerland, Luxembourg and most of Europe small countries in a way ?

They are dependent on the US, the UK, and France for most of their defense.

Do you want to annex them ?
I have no idea what you are asking here, or how it relates to the situation. Would you please explain? I will take a stab at it, but I know it probably isn't what you are trying to ask.

Many countries forge alliances to protect each other, to mutual benefit. You compromise and get the protection in exchange for something else. That's how a deal works between nations. (I need this, you have this.. etc.) Morally, the UK and US has found it abhorant to invade sovereign countries and would only do so if there was a perceived threat. Other countries, fear the consiquences of an invasion and have to do a cost/benefit analysis.

NATO as an example, which the UK and US are part of as well as a huge swath of European countries. The UK is actually the second biggest spender and one of the most important allies in the alliance.( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO) We actually take our defence seriously unlike most of Europe. We've been an ally the US can largely depend on because many of us do want to do 'the right thing'.

Scotland is being far too demanding, and unwilling to compromise to do any kind of deal with. She is asking to cut our military essentially in half 'just for them'... just for 5 million people. That is not going to happen no matter how much they whine for it.

If Scotland wishes our protection after breaking the union, (They will need it regardless), they need to join NATO. They need to give up the 'no nukes' ideology and actually compromise on Trident and Military bases. Or will they say 'haha, you have to defend us because if you don't you'll get invaded! No we won't pay a thing for it!' I suspect they will attempt the later. Or worse, seek more unstable alliances that could be a threat to the rest of the UK and Europe. The UK would be diminished, wounded and will likely have politics go far to the right to protect Herself from what Scotland has done.

So no, the UK has never 'invaded' other countries she protects because that is how a deal works. We have always followed NATO in military exercises, and fulfil our obligations despite how messy it sometimes gets.

I don't think post independence, should it happen, that the UK will tolerate Scotland acting as She has. These powers were given to try and safe-guard the union... they abused it and decided to break it. You don't need to annex a country to make them pay for their actions though... the UK will remain a very powerful neighbour, that they have no further say in.
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kid
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by kid »

Rumple C wrote:Luckily? Israel is helping them fix this by slowly annexing Palestine bit by bit anyhow. Once there is nothing left to free, it'll all be solved.
I am annoyed by your ignorance and so I shall take the time and PM you what I have to say.

Also...
Free Scotland!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zFAvzf0Mv0
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orangetree
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by orangetree »

kid wrote:
Rumple C wrote:Luckily? Israel is helping them fix this by slowly annexing Palestine bit by bit anyhow. Once there is nothing left to free, it'll all be solved.
I am annoyed by your ignorance and so I shall take the time and PM you what I have to say.

Also...
Free Scotland!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zFAvzf0Mv0

Scotland is a free society, as Free as anyone else in the United Kingdom. You belittle what the loss of freedom and dignity is, by comparing any such situations to a democratic process as is happening now.

Also, look up what William Walace was. he was a man born in noblity. He was made a knight and all sorts, and his first act was to kill an English Sheriff in cold blood. He spared nobody, not of age, or if they were millitary or civilian. He just killed everyone who was 'English' (and possibly more)

Braveheart is a made up story, and there is little truth to the story. Scotland entered into a unity with us because She was broke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace
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kid
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by kid »

Stop interrupting my ethos with your logic.
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orangetree
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by orangetree »

kid wrote:Stop interrupting my ethos with your logic.
Unfortuntaely, half of scotland have started to believe in ethos over logic. Logic does not always prevail, but I hope people will see sense. Then again, as I've said before, people scare me.
Ronan
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by Ronan »

I am forever amazed at people's fascination with democracy. In large-scale elections, people don't vote based on political self (or national, for that matter) interest, they vote based on what the vote signals to their friends and other in-groups. It shouldn't surprise anyone when this process doesn't produce good policy.

I also refuse to believe kid is anything but a militant, theistic banker-tyrant.
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by Veilan »

I am materially affected by this referendum since the next OS Con is happening in London end of this month, so I need to decide whether to buy pounds before or after the vote... bookmakers are still saying it's gonna be a "no" though, and they're usually right.

As for a political statement, I shall brook no challenge to the house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's rule, especially not in the year when the Poms celebrate 300 years of being Hannoveranian.
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Lord grant that Marshall Wade
by Thy mighty aid
victory bring.
May he sedition hush
and like a torrent rush
rebellious Scots to crush -
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Hialmar
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by Hialmar »

Neutral countries can and actually exist without any relation to non neutral countries.

Switzerland and Ireland, for example, are neutral countries, they are not in NATO but I bet you everything I have that if someone wants to invade them we will defend them. Full point.

Why would it be different for Scotland ? Because some Scottish PMs voted for the military budget in the past ? I'm fairly sure some Irish PMs voted for the military budget before Ireland (I mean the Republic of Ireland) became free. What is the difference ?
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orangetree
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by orangetree »

Hialmar wrote:Neutral countries can and actually exist without any relation to non neutral countries.

Switzerland and Ireland, for example, are neutral countries, they are not in NATO but I bet you everything I have that if someone wants to invade them we will defend them. Full point.

Why would it be different for Scotland ? Because some Scottish PMs voted for the military budget in the past ? I'm fairly sure some Irish PMs voted for the military budget before Ireland (I mean the Republic of Ireland) became free. What is the difference ?
They are right next to us and historically intertwined in blood and memory.
Hialmar
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by Hialmar »

France can say the same with most of Belgium, Luxembourg and Monaco but they are independent countries anyway.

Germany can say the same of Austria and still...

I can give you examples for hours.

Besides, are you aware that what you say is exactly what the Russians are telling us about Crimea and the eastern part of Ukrania ?

Oh and I didn't invent the fact that there is a frontier between England and Scotland.

It will be more difficult when France will have to give freedom to Euskadi because there is no frontier there. But still if the Basque people want to be free they have all rights to it.
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orangetree
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by orangetree »

Hialmar wrote:France can say the same with most of Belgium, Luxembourg and Monaco but they are independent countries anyway.

Germany can say the same of Austria and still...

I can give you examples for hours.

Besides, are you aware that what you say is exactly what the Russians are telling us about Crimea and the eastern part of Ukrania ?

Oh and I didn't invent the fact that there is a frontier between England and Scotland.

It will be more difficult when France will have to give freedom to Euskadi because there is no frontier there. But still if the Basque people want to be free they have all rights to it.
I am acutely aware of it, which is why I do have some sympathy for the russian situation and don't consider it so cut and dry as most in europe. I am also aware Crimea became a nuclear free state, promised protection by other nuclear states, and we have let them down. How they must regret it.

There is no such thing as a completely independent country. Scotland will be heavily dependent, as would all these other successor states but without the resources of their larger neighbours, and a big bag of resentment. If the UK were forced to choose between keeping scotland happy, or her larger neighbours and military aliles happy, they would have to choose them over scotland. It will not go well.
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by Xanthea »

self-determination really is the worst isn't it
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orangetree
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by orangetree »

Xanthea wrote:self-determination really is the worst isn't it
Sarcasm. Can you offer anything more substantial?
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Xanthea
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by Xanthea »

orangetree wrote:
Xanthea wrote:self-determination really is the worst isn't it
Sarcasm. Can you offer anything more substantial?
Well, I could suggest you get your head out of the 19th century?
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Re: Oh Flowers of Stoland

Post by Zelknolf »

Nation states continue to define themselves by opposition to others.

Do we also have to have that fight as individuals?
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