How to bring back the people?

[Blindhamsterman]

Other things to do would be to provide high levels the tools to properly facilitate lower levels doing things.

E.g. my pc is a rather good crafter, if I was able to make a lot of weapons of various materials as well as wands etc, and had an actual way to make money in game without farming I'd LOVE to set up shop, send Lower levels on errands and provide them with gear (at a reduced cost).

It'd be cool if pcs with a prc could validate other pcs to enter the same prc after training too (I know of a couple that'd be on path for bladesinger for example)

Basically allow higher levels to provide some of the basic functions a dm might so I guess.

[t-ice]

the fact high levels exist should be a cool, impressive thing, they should've performed great deeds and the like

People who have performed great things should indeed exist in the IC world. And they should deserve admiration and being impressed at for their deeds (and maybe also a good bit of jealosy...). But there is no roleplay need for their past deeds making them god-like in power so that most player's characters are irrelevant by comparison. That's what's preventing people from playing together, they need challenges from different planets.

Suggestion: bring back validation for set levels, maybe 8, 10 and every one after it.

Theoretically a nice idea, but can you really imagine it working? Can you see PCs being denied validation, maybe after a token DM quest that was practically forced to be squeezed in there? If yes, it'd be a shitstorm of "beating the poor DMless folks who are already down". There is no more ire-inspiring way to achieve the goal of not advancing DMless than this, even cutting all non-DM xp by three quarters would be smoother.

The servers that favour a slower progression tend to solve the issue by allowing multiple PCs. Level gaps aren't nearly as big a deal if the old established players have the ability to switch to a more appropriate character when needed.

Probably would help, I agree. But it'd pretty much need 2 PCs per server. I'd bet most people wouldn't want to play more than 2 or 3 max PCs overall. The point where ALFA is now means that in order to get any game at all you need make a game table where every single player logging in can join. That needs to be the goal, a game where any two people logging in at the same time can with high probability easily play meaningfully together. It means the highest power PCs can be only as poweful as a party of the lowest. There's still plenty of power differential there to get the feeling of advancement and RP potential for green-ear vs veteran.

Perhaps ironically, the whole point of a E# system is to help keeping high level PCs relevant. So that you don't have to abandon the cool story and achievements of your long and lovingly played PC because she has now grown too powerful compared to the typical PC. Allowing more PCs might patch the problem over some, but if the veteran player would rather play his "main" to meet the newbies than a half-harted low-level alt, then we're doing no-one a favor by stretching the power differential so much as to make that unfeasible and forcing to play the alt.

[Blindhamsterman]

Or.... as I just suggested, Alfa could facilitate ways for high levels to ENRICH lower levels game. As stated I for one would LOVE to be able to send other pcs on errands and have a means of rewarding them, I'd love to be able to properly train pcs to enter the prc I worked for over a year and a half to get into, I'd love to be able to provide pcs the tools to go and adventure.

None of the above is really possible right now, unless a dm is on. Provide higher level long established pcs the tools to do this, and I guarantee both they and the lower levels would have more fun.

Impose an e# system and I foresee even more folk leaving Alfa.

[Xanthea]

How sustainable would that be? Sure it'd be a nice thing to be able to do now and then but I don't think playing quest giver is the sort of thing that someone would be able to do enough to give their character constant interaction.

[Blindhamsterman]

Quest giver, crafter, trainer. That's three ways off the top of my head a higher level could enrich a lower levels game.

They can all be done already, but are not rewarding for either pc.

If I could actually train a lower level (rp that is based around learning skills my pc had to learn) and actually grant them some bonus exp beyond just the rpxp ticker and eventually validate them into said prc, that would likely provide a lot of rp for a prospective pc over a large period of time, it'd also provide them with something other than farming to do...

Crafting, while possible at the moment requires a dm for item crafting, if I could do it without, I'd make items and be able to provide them to lower level pcs, less long term rp I guess, but its something I made my pc to do, and I'm not the only one to have done so. It also means other rp can branch off of those interactions. Currently as I have no mans to make means to make money due to lack of dms I'm enable to do this though.

Quest giving would probably come from the money made from the thing above. I could then pay pcs to go explore etc, and dms could utilise me to give other quests too.

Most of the above would be viable for the majority of our high levels I think.

<edit>
I guess I could ask to be a dm, npc my character and ONLY do the above, but then I lose out on the fun of progressing my own pc as well, and I doubt many hdms would be happy with me basically 'playing my pc' as a dm and adventuring with him still

<edit2>
I guess combining campaign pc with dm wand would work if dma would go for it. Once a pc gets to a certain level, give the player the option to switch that pc to a campaign only pc, but allow the player to basically dm through said pc. Perhaps don't give the player access to the normal dm forums, but give them the same sort of power a provisional dm would get....

[t-ice]

<edit2>
I guess combining campaign pc with dm wand would work if dma would go for it. Once a pc gets to a certain level, give the player the option to switch that pc to a campaign only pc, but allow the player to basically dm through said pc. Perhaps don't give the player access to the normal dm forums, but give them the same sort of power a provisional dm would get....

I suppose that would be the way to do it. Relegating high-level PCs to "campaign PC"s. The thing with campaign PCs being that they gain XP only via DM events, and will not venture out to "adventure" with lower levels. Rather the campaign PC is a quest-giver for low levels, and could even have some limited grant XP and gold powers.

Best would actually be to forcefully relegate all PCs to such "campaign PC"s after reaching some level. Otherwise everyone would prefer a couple levels on their neighbors before campaign-PCing theirs. After all, they can still freely join appropriate DM events, and they can RP with anybody at any time. They shouldn't go ruin lower levels adventures by joining anyway. And high level PCs shouldn't grind to get even higher. You can advance by DM only after some point (say, level 8 ?), and you are free to roll a new PC. It's almost a more ruthless version of the E# system, but it needs no extra rules, just denying xp from static content.

What wouldn't work is having a high-level PC giving quests to low levels, and then the high level getting xp and gold as well. Because then DMs should get XP to their PCs for DMing, now shouldn't they? And more importantly then there is no decreasing of the "not able to play together" power disparity.

There's some potential in this "high level PC as mentor/provider", but the thing is that very few people want to play the third banana or apprentice role for the forseeable future, now matter how much you might want your highbie to be the condecending benefactor. If you want people to come play with you, you have to give these people an equal seat at the gaming table. As opposed to stick to "what you earned IC", and relegate potential newcomers to be your PC's groupies forevermore. Equal seat doesn't necessarily mean PC of same level, but it does mean being able to contribute in facing the same challenges. That's the core what makes DnD fun, not earning levels, let alone lording levels earned over those who have not and saying there ICly should be godly characters around.

You might have all the best intentions, but if it comes off as condecending on the low levels, it's going to attract nobody. If your PnP group got a new (or returning) member, you wouldn't give him a lvl1 character if everyone else was plaing level 10s, now would you, even though you earned your levels by playing and he has not.

tldr version:
Remove all non-DMd xp gains after some level. If this "soft cap" is at say 8, coupled to a level 3 start, people might actually be able to come and meaningfully (re-)join the game.

[Blindhamsterman]

As always you warp it into a more negative scenario, well done for that

A high level training/mentoring doesn't need to be condescending, in fact I've been involved in exactly that scenario from both sides more than once and it was some of the more enjoyable rp I'd had.

The only way my second edit would be a 'good' idea would be if said high level was guaranteed dm time. Which wont happen, hence the suggestions around empowering high level pcs to improve things for low levels.

But yes... brick wall, you're dead set on the e# style game, suffice to say, I'd most definitely call it a day if it came to pass, and no doubt a fair number of others would too.

In pnp we actually do often have newcomers start a bit behind in terms of exp. Always worked fine *shrug*

[Swift]

Remove all non-DMd xp gains after some level. If this "soft cap" is at say 8, coupled to a level 3 start, people might actually be able to come and meaningfully (re-)join the game.

Or force people away as well. Even in NWN1, campaign only PCs were completely optional for people and many did not take up that option. What this, in essence says, is "Congratulations and thank you for playing in ALFA. We are delighted to inform you that you can now only advance via a DM and it would be best if you re-rolled." It is especially harsh on players that do not see DMs all that much. Combined with the fact that keeping everyone grouped in the same, narrower level band would drive all the DMing in that direction, this is basically forced retirement dressed up to not look so bad. Getting to a higher level should be an achievement and it should be something players enjoy. They should not be sitting there with their characters that would still be full of potential going "Well, its basically game over in another level."

Forcing players to essentially give up their long lived PCs will drive as many people out of ALFA as it might attract.

[t-ice]

In pnp we actually do often have newcomers start a bit behind in terms of exp. Always worked fine *shrug*

Yes of course, "bit" being precisely the operative word.
At ALFA you get a lvl1 to go meet the lvl6+s. Small wonder the people who seems to have stayed recently are those who had the inclination and time to grind to "lvl7 in a month or two". (At my potential playtime it'd be a year or two)

So maybe it's not a coincidence we now have this dichtomy of old hands wanting to slow down xp gain rates, stick to their years old PCs, and complain how any farmer can now get to lvl10 with no rp, versus the newer "relax the stranglehold rules and let people have "fun"" party of grinders. (See, equal-opportunity insult, I make killer diplomacy!)

Training can certainly be enjoyable, and don't get me wrong, enablers for it is a good idea to bring forward in my opinion. But it's no generic solution for people playing together unless there's drastic cathup to be had. If training is the only way for two players to interact, it gets boring pretty fast, so the apprentice must reasonably fast reach the level where they play the same game as the master (some months rl time, or a hundred or so hours of game to get within 2-4 levels of the master). Which means some way of gaining power fast in the low levels and slowly in the high levels, and one that does not rely on grinding. So that players can join and effectively play in the same rink, regardless if they've been with ALFA a couple months or a decade.

But if giving new players a chance at an equal seat at the gaming table in reasonable time will just antagonize old players and their sense of entitlement and drive them away, then I guess there's nothing to do here.

[Blindhamsterman]

Training can certainly be enjoyable, and don't get me wrong, enablers for it is a good idea to bring forward in my opinion. But it's no generic solution for people playing together unless there's drastic cathup to be had. If training is the only way for two players to interact, it gets boring pretty fast, so the apprentice must reasonably fast reach the level where they play the same game as the master (some months rl time, or a hundred or so hours of game to get within 2-4 levels of the master). Which means some way of gaining power fast in the low levels and slowly in the high levels, and one that does not rely on grinding. So that players can join and effectively play in the same rink, regardless if they've been with ALFA a couple months or a decade.

An obvious thing to do with the suggested training would be to provide said trainer pc an equivalent to a dm wand that gives a set amount of xp (but not to themselves) that can be used 1/ic day. Make it a zero weight plot item the pc has to 'apply' for as well.

The trainer gets exp from the rp ticks and maybe a dm occasionally if they happen to watch, the trainee gets a nice pretty much guaranteed 'ping'.

Therefore the trainee levels relatively quickly by comparison to the trainer.



On a different note, I'd love to see Mail static be changed to drastically diminishing returns btw.


On another different note, it's not so much about 'entitlement' as 'fairness' there's also the idea that it was always cool to see a higher level pc, you knew they'd been around a long time and had been involved in major stuff all over. I personally never begrudged older characters being far higher in level than me, it has always been 'how it should be' IMO. I fully admit to disliking when characters that have been around for next to no time grind their way to high levels in no time at all, but that's mostly down to reasons ith/gala sort of touched on. It kind of cheapens getting to a high level.


So far, the one thing most seem to agree on is multiple pcs, so maybe admin should give that a go....

I like my ideas to find other ways to work with level differences, t-ice likes his.

[t-ice]

I personally never begrudged older characters being far higher in level than me

I don't "begrudge" anyone for being high level, and it's awesome they've managed cool stories with cool rewards! I certainly want my PC to hear of these ICly, and be awed. But that's just a nice piece of background in the world, the real deal that is needed is PCs that my PC can meaningfully adventure with (and hopefully a DM too). That's what it'd take to "bring back the people" in my case. Which I suppose can indirectly mean that I'm begrudging high level PCs for the level gap hindering their players from engaging in fun and games with me, as there are not being enough players to fill all level slots. Apparently the only way for me to help it is to spend a few hundred hours grinding first, and well, no thanks to that.

[Ronan]

The issue of large differences in power between PCs is not jealousy, but a barrier to party-formation and group-play when we hardly have enough PCs to form parties as it is. Sure there's jealousy too, but that is a personal and emotional issue, not one ALFA should concern itself with.

I am trying to get the multi-PC ball rolling.

[Blindhamsterman]

It makes me pretty sad that the feeling is lower levels cannot contribute, or that high levels take over entirely, having played in a couple of long ish campaigns here I can say its simply not true.

In viigas' campaign we had aglaril as a level 3 or 4 pc, alongside maeredhel who was about 7 at the time and laniara whom was 9 or 10 plus myself on 9 and sywyn on 10 or maybe even 11. Whilst its true that sywyn was able to do more damage than anyone else, its also true that aglaril quickly found his place helping elenaril up front and maeredhel was able to do all sort of skill type stuff due to a couple of rogue levels plus add backup spells....

And the above doesn't even include the rp benefits aglaril got from growing over that 2 month or so campaign...

And equally a level 6ish elrien saved elenarils life in a different dm event. There's been lots of times where lower levels can make all the difference, but I guess it depends on the players....

[SwordSaintMusashi]

There's been lots of times where lower levels can make all the difference, but I guess it depends on the players....

[oldgrayrogue]

Quest giver, crafter, trainer. That's three ways off the top of my head a higher level could enrich a lower levels game.

They can all be done already, but are not rewarding for either pc.

If I could actually train a lower level (rp that is based around learning skills my pc had to learn) and actually grant them some bonus exp beyond just the rpxp ticker and eventually validate them into said prc, that would likely provide a lot of rp for a prospective pc over a large period of time, it'd also provide them with something other than farming to do...

Crafting, while possible at the moment requires a dm for item crafting, if I could do it without, I'd make items and be able to provide them to lower level pcs, less long term rp I guess, but its something I made my pc to do, and I'm not the only one to have done so. It also means other rp can branch off of those interactions. Currently as I have no mans to make means to make money due to lack of dms I'm enable to do this though.

Quest giving would probably come from the money made from the thing above. I could then pay pcs to go explore etc, and dms could utilise me to give other quests too.

Most of the above would be viable for the majority of our high levels I think.

<edit>
I guess I could ask to be a dm, npc my character and ONLY do the above, but then I lose out on the fun of progressing my own pc as well, and I doubt many hdms would be happy with me basically 'playing my pc' as a dm and adventuring with him still

<edit2>
I guess combining campaign pc with dm wand would work if dma would go for it. Once a pc gets to a certain level, give the player the option to switch that pc to a campaign only pc, but allow the player to basically dm through said pc. Perhaps don't give the player access to the normal dm forums, but give them the same sort of power a provisional dm would get....

BH what you are describing here sounds a lot like an NPC. Retiring your high level PC, and asking the DMs to NPC them is cool. Their story goes on in a sense and they become permanent fixtures in the game. You can even DM and play them again as an NPC if you want =D

But to me this is the point. At a certain point a PC becomes so successful that they are essentially an NPC. We should encourage folk to give in to that reality -- its a success story! It is a simple fact that characters who hang around for too long begin to stagnate. I know its like that for me as a player. As a DM you can sort of start to run out of stuff for PCs to do after a while. The 10+ campaign PC is a cool idea to me because it gives someone the option to -- I don't know -- maybe get like an Underdark Campaign going - where high levels mights encounter some real risk. I know maybe Foam or others think I'm on this bashing campaign against high levels -- I'm not -- I just think ALFA should be PD for everbody. Risk at all levels is what keeps the game exciting, at least to me. And I sound like a broken record but starting over is what keeps the RP environment vibrant -- new stories starting all the time. This is one reason why OOCly I will never accept a rezz of a PC of mine unless there is an extraordinary IC reason to do so. If my toons die I feel like it was "meant to be" and time to move on to excitment and creativity of a different sort.

Finally, there is a lot of talk about what we can do to attract more players, and that seems to focus on how we can become more like the more populated servers. Why? If that is what our members want why not just play there? I tried those other populated servers and I'll tell you why I can only last a few days or so before I come back to ALFA. Trying out new PC concepts is fun. Grinding away and hauling in cool loot can be fun too for some mindless excitment, but it gets old real fast. Stories and immersive RP is what gets the juices flowing. That is what ALFA offers that the other PWs, for the most part, do not: immersive storytelling and RP. I don't want to play a video game that I can "win." I want to roleplay a story, and experience the range of emotion and excitement that comes with that. If the story ends with my PC being the King of the Land -- great! If it ends with him dead at the hands of some evil being that is great too. What we have to offer in ALFA is the quality of the journey, not the end result. So lets focus our comments on how to maybe improve and enhance what is great about ALFA and makes us different from the other PWs out there, rather than how we can become more like the other WOW minded video game worlds out there.