Traps

[rorax]

Hey.

Well, we had the discussion about poisons and seems things progress there. *coughs hollyfant*


What about traps? what is the situation of them in game? i know DMs can use them , but are they available to players?


Thanks.

[t-ice]

I was under the impression that traps aren't available to PCs by core rules, at least not in the tactical sense that nwn2 allows. (Except for spells like Glyphs and Delayed Blast)

[hollyfant]

The original reason was that traps stay behind even when the trapper has long ago logged off. Has that changed, or can that be changed?

Also: the griefing potential of trap kits is a serious concern.

[danielmn]

as far as I recall, T is correct. Certain spell traps such as glyphs are used IG now. However....

the electric/spike/negative trap crap that shipped with nwn1 and nwn2 has no canonical basis at all. Notice that Disable Device is the only skill based around traps in the PG, and that this skill is made to disarm traps, among other things. But there is no....set trap...skill.

End all be all, traps were meant to be used by dm's in pnp. Not PC's. I remember reading something on traps, probably from the DMG, about how much time it takes to actually set/make a trap. They are meant for protection, for wards in dungeons against intruders, or in crypts for those pesky grave robbers. They really aren't meant as the ten second set up damage dealer that we saw in NWN1 alfa. Some take MONTHS to make, iirc.

[t-ice]

Hypothetically speaking, hands off DnD rules, traps like nwn2 visaged them might provide some nice RP options in fantasy analogy to antipersonnel mines. It would give options for the more crafty and less direct characters, with skills so dedicated, to fortify defensive positions. And mines are quick to set up in reality.

Creative use of traps might make it (somewhat) possible to make significant the difference between attack and defense, and to give a (sometimes) appropriate advantage to the defender. This could yield plenty of RP potential in terms of "how to engage them", as opposed to just everyone charge to a frayball, or fall back.

A major downside is that the AI is far too stupid to not fall for being led over to traps by PCs. Every time. Which means that nwn2-like traps with a defensive purpose could easily be deployed in an attack by first mining your starting location next to the enemy, and then leading the enemy back into the mines. Playing a scenario about tactics requires that both sides are tactics-capable.

Also the party, as I recall, is immune to their own traps. But are hostile creatures affected by hostile traps?

Also, Caltrops?

[danielmn]

I personally disdained traps in nwn1. To quick on the set-up, and yes, the AI is not smart enough to avoid them, at all. Coupled with the previous fact that yes, they can be laid as a cvc measure, with the PC laying them easily logging out after. It's just a very borked system...though I would love to see caltrops implemented!

[t-ice]

As an additional thought, I suppose kiting monsters over traps is also a (lone) farmer's wet dream come true. I know we shouldn't punish people for being alone, but entertaining loners in ways counterproductive to RP are counterproductive.

Still, I pine for the chance to let PCs fortify their position against a coming onslaught. Or to have a party attack a fortified position.

[I-KP]

Still, I pine for the chance to let PCs fortify their position against a coming onslaught. Or to have a party attack a fortified position.

All of that is possible in session with a DM, no?

[Swift]

Still, I pine for the chance to let PCs fortify their position against a coming onslaught. Or to have a party attack a fortified position.

All of that is possible in session with a DM, no?

Last I heard, the tool that let DMs set traps was...troublesome at best. Tech might know more though.

[I-KP]

Still, I pine for the chance to let PCs fortify their position against a coming onslaught. Or to have a party attack a fortified position.

All of that is possible in session with a DM, no?

Last I heard, the tool that let DMs set traps was...troublesome at best. Tech might know more though.

Is that peculiar to ALFA? I've played numerous games in other worlds where DMs have made good use of temporary traps. Done - as in, stepped on - one or two in ALFA too, as it happens.

[t-ice]

Still, I pine for the chance to let PCs fortify their position against a coming onslaught. Or to have a party attack a fortified position.

All of that is possible in session with a DM, no?

I'd say it's not impossible. But it's cumbersome and troublesome at best. Doubly so if it's the enemies (AI) behind the "fortications". AI controlled creatures will run smack to their own traps, or run one after another to traps set by PCs.

But you're right, it's not impossible. Guess one of these days I might try to use some.

[rorax]

What about the traps described here?

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/traps.htm

The regular cr1,cr2....traps etc?

[Brokenbone]

Traps in PnP are created by way of the "Craft" skill. Just like you could Craft a weapon, or armor, a trap could be crafted as well.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

Crafting ANYTHING involves making crafting skill checks against the DC of whatever the heck you're making. Like say, DC 18 plate armor. Progress when you're talking about crafting is measured in weeks worth of work, where the better your rolls, the more progress you happen to make, calculated on a silverpieces basis. Bad rolls may mean no progress, or even destruction of raw materials, so that the normal crafting cost of "1/3 market" gets put out of whack. You can imagine that if you're progressing in "silverpieces per week", cheap items get created fast, expensive items take weeks or even months.

Armor and weapons have pretty clear cut DC's to beat. They also have pretty clear pricing.

You'll see there's a chart in there, where it says Craft (Trapmaking) pretty much varies on DC to create. When you go to that traps page, there is chart after chart about how much cost is involved in a trap, like traps with a high AB to shoot at someone, ramp up the cost. Lots of damage output, ramp up cost. Poison in them, ramp up cost, etc.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#designingATrap

The link above is just... insane. But go to the very end of that page and it will at least summarize the DCs based on the trap CR. Simplest ones (CR 1-3) are DC 20 to craft. The gold piece value could be anything though, you can look at sample traps as Rorax linked to. The absolute first one on the list is a crappy "Basic Arrow Trap", it more or less shoots a 1d6 arrow at +10 AB, and the cost is 2,000gp (or 20,000 silver pieces). Since it's a CR1 trap, the DC is only 20 to create it.

Now, say that a trap-crafter wants to make one. Let's say he has high INT, some tools, someone assisting, whatever... it all ends up netting out to a +10 to his Crafting skill rolls. Let's say he is the luckiest guy in the world and absolutely EVERY week he rolls a 20, which ends up counting as a 30 each week for the end result.

Crafting page pretty much says to multiply your result by the DC to get the silverpiece progress for the week. 30 check x 20 DC = 600 silvers (aka 60 gold).

So in week one he's 60gp towards 2000gp. After another 32 or 33 weeks, he'll be at 2000gp.

Netted out, the Crafting system of good old DnD is telling us "this CR1 trap... is going to take about eight months to create." Yeah there's also 500gp traps for CR1 (like a Swinging Block), but that will still take like, two months (quarter the price means quarter the time).

This is why, I figure, traps are found in crazy dungeons. Tribe of kobolds who has lived there for eight seasons, has twenty scoundrel "engineer" trick-makers, the occasional industrial accident where some kobold gets comically boiled in oil, blah blah blah. The DM doesn't have to do all the math, just a shrug of the shoulders and say "the defenses for this lair took the tribe months to create", and call it a day.

DMs might also do this in PnP for PC strongholds, when they get out some stronghold building guidelines and start charging high level PCs the right amount for a wall, gates of certain thickness, towers of certain heights, nasty traps near the treasury, whatever... but again, really hand over the work to a team of NPCs, say "OK Lord Brokenbone, this team of dwarves is going to charge 19,000gp for the defenses you requested, is it a deal?"

Anyhow, yeah. PnP traps are "crafted", and take a crazy long time, and are crazy expensive.

NWN1 & 2's "half pound things which can be like mini fireballs, mini lightning bolts etc., set instantly", some people like them, some people don't. Some people dislike most of them but kind of have curiosity about call it spike and tangle traps, there are "bear trap" items in maybe Arms & Equipment or some other guide, and snares you could in cases picture being used in the right surrounds, I suppose even pits (not that we have kits for those) you can picture with enough time and shovels.

I guess what I'm saying is, "poisons, yeah those are expensive store bought things, with pretty clear cut rules on how to use them, in a hurry." Traps also have clear cut rules, but since in PnP they take months to make, they're much more of a "lair defense by NPCs who you just make up a story for about how and why their lair looks like this." And maybe rarely used by PCs as well, but only PCs with months on their hands and usually their own real estate.

Don't know if this background is of any help?

[Zelknolf]

Doing traps by D&D rules is doing crafting, and it's doing crafting in the most obnoxiously complex and difficult-to-support way possible.

As BB notes, the skill you want is craft (trapmaking), and such traps are crafted where they're used (slowly and expensively). "Trap kits" are indeed banned by ALFA standards; if we ever see them in play, they'll most likely be very cumbersome reusable things, like bear traps. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you; I'm not aware of any source book which provides (non-PrC-granted) trap kits. Nothing says that you can't get a DM to run these sorts of things, though. They all work on the sort of time scale where the module will probably reset a few times before you're done.

In response to Swift: the omega wand is a bit long in the tooth, and its problems were only recently made aware to tech (because, y'know, we hadn't been working on it or maintaining it, and it's pulling teeth to get some people to report bugs). 1.85 has some basic attempts to make it less crashy and more compatible with our new build systems in it.

[Brokenbone]

OK, I guess the Arms & Equipment guide has something that isn't quite a tangle trap, but it's cheap. Barbed wire. Still takes a lot of hours to string though I guess any idiot who has an okay Reflex save can do it. Noting though that enough wire to do the deed is 35lbs... all for a measly d3 damage. I think people could spend those 1d4+6 hours worth of stringing wire doing something more productive, like throwing a dart at an enemy for d4.





Races of Faerun has something bear trap-like, I am sure I've seen other bear trap stats elsewhere though. Still, RoF is nice and Forgotten-Realms-y. The Footsaw trap would still take weeks for someone to craft, but it could be done in a safe location I suppose, and then carried off into the field to set it up properly. No, it's not explicit exactly, but I have to take this as an idea that "you make it someplace... then take a short time to pin it down and hide it out in the woods." No guidelines on how long it would take to properly / safely set one of these bad boys up out in the field, but I'd figure careful picking of a spot, gathering materials to properly camoflage it, pinning it down with some kind of hammer and spike arrangement, testing how firmly it's held to ground etc., maybe that's an hour's work? Half hour? Certainly not a couple of six-second rounds. Price is kind of obscene, but not that shocking in light of what other low CR traps are, besides which, this is a trap that keeps on giving in terms of 1d4 for every time you struggle, in addition to the initial d6. The DC 15 disable is pretty pathetic though, and can really only be used before the trap springs, after that it's all STR checks or Escape Artist skill.



Anyhow, yeah, portable traps are kinda few and far between in sourcebooks. You want an instant trap, use a Glyph. Or even as a Rogue, up your UMD skills and get a Scroll of Glyph of Warding (375gp) or if feeling crazy, a Wand of Glyph of Warding for 50 uses at 11250gp. Better than 2000gp arrow traps!