Evil character tolerance?

[maxcell]

i love when ppl play an evil character,.....well. <----

Seriously, I would love to be completely taken in by a character who is inherently evil, being rped well, so well that perhaps I may suspect it, but their actions have not proven it and I am completely surprised later to find out they were evil.

Then there are the ones whose character enters in, and the evil exudes from them, you can sense it in game. I really enjoy the interaction.

[t-ice]

There seems to be some lack of fair tit for tat here. If the evil aligned PCs are not allowed to hunt every good aligned PC, because there are NPCs for that instead, then certainly the same should hold for the good aligned PCs hunting the evil PCs.

If "Hey, they're the folks you ended up interacting with even though there's a 1000 npcs around." is an excuse to hunt PC baddies, then certainly the same excuse would go for evil PCs ambushing the goodies. And claiming to be a paladin and saying your detect evil blinked red, ICly doesn't excuse you to run through whoever you please on the streets. Even if you happened to speak the truth.

[Castano]

+1 t-ice.

I think we need to focus on player versus alfa more and save player versus player for true DM'd nemesis type action where you are actively trying to foil one another.

Adding the fact that a CvC situation will turn on who is higher level usually and you create a fight for xp and power item accumulation (i.e. an arms race) makes me leery of the whole thing. Violent conflict between PCs is usually decided even before the fight simply based on which PC is more powerful.

[Zelknolf]

And claiming to be a paladin and saying your detect evil blinked red, ICly doesn't excuse you to run through whoever you please on the streets. Even if you happened to speak the truth.

I'm pretty sure that a paladin falls for this one regardless of the (N)PC status of the victim, and isn't a fair characterization of how evil PCs get targeted in play. I would hope that if there was ever a killing with only the rationale of "But my evil radar said beep" (please tell me there hasn't been), it would be overturned with admonishments given to the aggressor.

[Heero]

There seems to be some lack of fair tit for tat here. If the evil aligned PCs are not allowed to hunt every good aligned PC, because there are NPCs for that instead, then certainly the same should hold for the good aligned PCs hunting the evil PCs.

+1

If "Hey, they're the folks you ended up interacting with even though there's a 1000 npcs around." is an excuse to hunt PC baddies, then certainly the same excuse would go for evil PCs ambushing the goodies.

Certainly. However, in that mixed racial/deity/alignment group that is the average ALFA group the chances are pretty good that most of the characters there would have ample IC reason to hunt your Malarite the moment word gets out that he/she did something naughty, while you are probably the only one in the group that is going to have a desire to kill the Lurue druid because of he/she doing something nice.

The point I have been trying to make is that an ALFA server is a very small community. How many times can you expect these other player's characters to suspend disbelief and carry on as though all is well and good with your evil PC that they see in the tavern daily, interact with daily, and adventure with daily? I think most people DO tend to put aside these difference for the greater good of the campaign/event - at least at first - but when does it become ridiculous that the goodie PCs arent acting on all this information of evil deeds they have heard or witness about this person they see all the time?

In the small community that is an ALFA server it is just very hard to play an antagonist amongst a bunch of heros, and, lets be honest, the reason people want to play evil is so they can be the antagonist. I am not saying people shouldnt still try to play such an antagonist, I am simply saying that people arent going to/shouldnt be required to turn a blind eye while ignoring rumors or observations of suspicious and evil activities performed by one or two of the 20 people they interact with on a daily basis.

[Darkmystic]

Few good churches and gods allow their followers to randomly kill evil people for being evil. Also if you did detect evil in places like big cities, your evil "radar" would beep aplenty since you dont need to be a baby eater to be evil. A common thief can have aligment evil, selfish assholes tend to be evil.

And there is no evil tolerance on alfa really, few DMs do plots that evil characters can focus on. Evil characters tend to never be able to do their thing like.. Just killing a commoner and borrow their corpse in the middle of the wilds and you can bet your ass on that some random player is gona get dm aid to find the body.

I might sound bitter but thats the way it is, luckily we got some great Dms that do allow evil characters to blossom and for them we thank. (Ronan <3)

And some constructive: Can it be fixed? Yes easily, dont allow DMs to go like "I dont dm evil people.". All plots that are evil dont need to be "baby eating". Also, put some demands on the good people. No character, evil or good should be able to random cvc people cause "you worship X".

[Veilan]

I actually think that a cooperative-playstyle friendly main campaign focus is A Good Thing.

This is not because ALFAs DMs hate evil so much and play favourites, but because we are in a DnD-style campaign, and the majority of people usually seem to want to play adventurers, motivated by idealism or lust for treasure - and the effort put in specifically catering to evil or other high attention demanding factions usually doesn't pay off.

For a DM, it's much more convenient if he can throw a random stock adventure at people and assume they are in the neutralish to goody region and will bite, not try to plot against each other or refuse to venture out togethe. It's really a matter of efficiency and conduciveness for a place where many people are involved, and overcoming challenges and obstacles - as arbitrated by the DM - through employing teamwork is, I think, a big part of DnD's draw.

Evil can be fun and rewarding, but a cooperative-minded PW is a place where it can only be enjoyed with some effort and luck. I am sure there are niches to flourish in, but certainly "50-50" cannot really work, and probably should not. In fact, I would think a vast majority quietly understands that every player ought to make a character conducive to the overall campaign and gameplay - and while not impossible with an evil-aligned character, it's certainly easier with a goody or adventurer type.

I guess there's always the Arathi Basin if you wish to scare some gnomes, anyway .

Cheers,

[Heero]

I actually think that a cooperative-playstyle friendly main campaign focus is A Good Thing.

This is not because ALFAs DMs hate evil so much and play favourites, but because we are in a DnD-style campaign, and the majority of people usually seem to want to play adventurers, motivated by idealism or lust for treasure - and the effort put in specifically catering to evil or other high attention demanding factions usually doesn't pay off.

+1

For a DM, it's much more convenient if he can throw a random dungeon crawl and people and assume they are in the neutralish to goody region and will bite, not try to plot against each other or refuse to venture out together. It's really a matter of efficiency and conduciveness for a place where many people are involved.

+1

Evil can be fun and rewarding, but a cooperative-minded PW is a place where it can only be enjoyed with some effort and luck. I am sure there are niches to flourish in, but certainly "50-50" cannot really work, and probably should not. In fact, I would think a vast majority quietly understands that every player ought to make a character conducive to the overall campaign and gameplay - and while not impossible with an evil-aligned character, it's certainly easier with a goody or adventurer type.

I guess there's always the Arathi Basin if you wish to scare some gnomes, anyway .

Cheers,

More eloquently stated then me.

[Brokenbone]

It's a small world after all.

Higher density would maybe mean people aren't all up in each other's business... where people end up in pick up groups and disperse and reform but do lots of talking between events, whether IC or OOC. But that's not what we have.

The alternative is little isolated campaigns where people do not bump into much other than their close party mates, this is just a variation of "in the closet" I guess. Darugith played in Sembia, she's aware of how nasty a variety of thieves were, when playing in a multi-year thieves' guild campaign, but disavowing any knowledge of any such guild to outsiders. Guild, what guild? We are just doing uh... a cooking class, every Thursday at 8, and somehow we get some new scars and some new loot now and again.

[Blindhamsterman]

for what its worth.... detect evil in pnp doesn't detect folk that simply have an evil alignment afaik...

it detects people with an evil aura... so must be clerics of evil dieties, always evil monster types etc... i.e. a cleric of bane in silverymoon would get caught out by one of the many npc paladins very quickly... let alone the PC paladin that actually gets RPd regularly...

[oldgrayrogue]

ALFA is a Persistant World not a bunch of campaign servers. Its one of our Pillars after all:

7) Persistant. ALFA's Faerun shall be persistant.

I understand the drama and bad feelings, and associated headaches for DMs and admin, that can occur when characters become antagonistic against other characters. However, I think we lose the "hardcore roleplay" badge we all wear so proudly if we all start playing only non-evil aligned PCs or avoid IC confrontation with other characters IC for what seem to be largely OOC considerations. If everyone agrees to do so fine, but to require or (even subtly) encourage it by not supporting evil alignment play is lame and totally immersion breaking for me. Our characters need to be be able to react ICly to other characters as well as NPCs to preserve immersion and foster serious roleplay. And no, I don't mean "Me Paladin, you smell evil I smite you!" Lets be serious -- no one in ALFA does that. In a PW, as opposed to a micro managed PnP campaign, character vs character conflict is inevitable, hugely immersive and leads to stimulating RP IMHO. As a player or a DM I absolutely LOVE evil player characters -- even, and perhaps moreso, when I am playing good. In my opinion they are the straw that stirs the drink. Without them we become a bore.

As to the experience of some with "evil not being supported," well, be patient because it is. I'll say it again, with just ONE long term evil PC, I was able to with both DM support and without DM support:

1. Plot and commit multiple premeditated and several spontaneous murders
2. Kidnapping and torture
3. Burglary and Highway Robbery
4. Jailbreaks
5. "Double Agent" type scheming and plots against PCs and NPCs
6. Corruption of PCs and NPCs
7. Bribery
8. Black Market goods transactions
9. Associations and dealings with evil organizations
10. Drug dealing

The list goes on and I could go on and on. And this was all before Ronan DM'd here (but yeah i love Ronan too just the same =D) I think the reason people think evil is not supported on ALFA is because most of the type of stuff on the list above happens -- duh -- in secret. Evil, if it is successful, is usually clandestine. Although Vendrin managed to do it out in the open with a skill of which I am envious. The reason evil has a hard time is because most -- but not all -- of our current server settings are predominantly goodly settings. I would expect a goodly PC in Skullport, when it goes live, to have as much of a hard time there as an evil PC on TSM or BG, unless they keep their worship of that holy goodly deity and their Pally ID card secret that is. So yeah, if you wanna play evil then play it and have fun. Its super cool to be an antagonist, but understand it is also a high risk occupation. Trust me you will get support if you are good at it, just have some patience. Also have the understanding and temperment that is required to play evil without getting bent out of shape over good folk always trying to do you in. Fact is, it is only the truly exceptional bad guy who doesn't eventually get caught and punished, or done in by his cohorts.

The support is there. Play it if you wanna. We don't need to change ALFA or soften our RP because it can sometimes be a PITA to deal with.

[johnlewismcleod]

What OGR said...again

[Ithildur]

I seem to recall that more than half of ALFA1's Hall of Fame PC's were evil aligned. Some of them often ended up interacting with goodies too, without breaking either immersion or ruining the experience for the goodie players, but rather making the game more fun for everyone, which is a big part of why they ended up HOFers.

I also know people like OGR had great success running evils, etc.

I don't see what the big problem is; perhaps a lot simply depends on which DMs at a particular season are willing to work with evil PCs to various degrees, and as others have said, relying on good sense, subtlety, etc while making sure the game is as fun as possible for other players and DMs (and part of fun in a RP environment INCLUDES setbacks)... the players of above PCs would likely tell you it worked out just fine.

I also recall conversations with one HOF evil player; she fully expected that her toon once she left the UD areas had an exponentially higher chance of dying (eventually with an entire server of mostly good types hunting her)... and that too, may be part of the reality you have to accept. I mean, there's a reason why people don't turn to crime aside from morality; if you're in a primarily good or lawful or even neutral region you are taking risks of getting caught for stuff and jailed, hanged, hunted, etc., risks that in some ways are greater than the risks an adventurer takes facing kobolds and goblins. Unless you figure out a way to work the system in your favor, etc, playing an evil in a good/lawful environment SHOULD be extra challenging. The reverse also applies; if I played a goodie in certain places I would be paranoid of being ganked (or manipulated and deceived,etc which may be worse) every day.

[t-ice]

for what its worth.... detect evil in pnp doesn't detect folk that simply have an evil alignment afaik...

While I don't personally like it, actually detect evil does detect anyone who is evil:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

So it's the reverse in terms of problems with Detect: It doesn't tell the difference between the schoolyard bully and the necromancer (long as the latter is 10th level or lower and isn't wearing evil spells). Detect alignment does ping even low-level clerics easily, but then clerics of deceiving-themed gods infiltrating places run by paladin-y ethics would be expected to wear countering magics - which shouldn't be that rare.

And of course having evil vs good tensions, not both isolated to their own campaings, is brilliant. It's one of the things a persistent world has going for it over a classical campaing. But it should heed the lesson of the first five panels here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html

Stomping on PCs that are "seven, eight ... more?" levels below you isn't a positive way to bring in that tension. And yes, usually just 3 levels is enough. On-engine nwn2 duel wouldn't usually be the IC way to resolve a CvC, either. If both players agree to fight it out like that, then sure, why not. But both players agreeing on a DM resolving the matter (before the fatal confrontation is "on") would probably be better. If no agreement between the players is found, agreeing to leave each others backs alone is generally for the best. In a seriously lopsided setting thing, say a Tormite in Skullport or Sharite in Silvy, then asking people to "lay off my antagonist" shouldn't fly, though. PCs created for the purpose of trolling should be treated as such. (Which would probably mean a chat aside with the player asking for what is the cosntructive and fun purpose for the PC.)

Generally, if CvC actions always had real risk for both sides, which is certainly not the case in nwn2-duels in a world with so wide a level spread, then I'd say odds are both CvC and playing evil in general would be more satisfying and not perceived as unfair so much. If that lvl10 paladin really needs to go after that lvl4 cleric of Shar, then get a DM to run an appropriate encounter against her. And if ICly Sharites can be expected to learn of the attack, by the target escaping alive or otherwise, be prepared for the possibility of them coming after you - with NPCs appropriate for your level.

I'd presume most DMs would welcome player initiative in instigating some faction conflict that penetrates the setting beyond the community of PCs. I know I would.

[Tegid]

I'd presume most DMs would welcome player initiative in instigating some faction conflict that penetrates the setting beyond the community of PCs. I know I would.

As did I. What I see lacking, from my experience, are DMs giving characters personal attention related to their background, current goals, faith, race, etc. Instead, we appear to have DMs running campaigns. This setup is great for that type of gamestyle, and we have many here who favor it I think. And again this is just my from my experience.

I like the idea of a local thieves guild, gang, family, cult, whatever (that u have to join IC) with a DM doing something with them one or two nights a week. Outside a DM, we'd have each other to go adventuring with, a cute little Players Forum, in-game safehouse/secret shrine, persitent storage, a fence/guild merchant... maybe someday. It's what has me considering becoming a DM, though I'd be terribly dependant on others;
"Hey can u build me a guild house?",
"Hey buddy, can u make these NPCs for me? Heres the stats kthx!",
"Oh ok how do I make NPCs?",
"Help! How do you do a tech raise?"