Turning/Rebuking Undead

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paazin
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Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by paazin »

Keep in mind that when you turn or rebuke undead your holy symbol is visible to all in the vicinity. If you turn undead in the presence of other PCs you must inform them of your holy symbol.

You have been warned.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by t-ice »

I suppose if you're playing a cleric of a all disguise-y god that you want to keep, you know, disguised, then there would be opposed checks with spot/disguise/know religion, or such? It just doesn't strike me that you'd invoke the power of Mask or Shar by shouting the name very loudly and waving around their most well-known form of symbol. Though some form of presenting the holy symbol should be present, I'd say it should take not insignificant knowledge in such matters to even tell a holy symbol of Mask of Shar for what it is, when hit over the head with one.

Makes it much more interesting to potential clerics of evil, disguise-y gods.

And at least I've played it with such checks applying to casting clerical spells, too.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by Zelknolf »

Regardless of how the concept strikes people, the PHB specifies that the holy symbol of a cleric's patrion must be presented boldly in order to channel positive or negative energy to turn or rebuke undead.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by Blindhamsterman »

well... that's gonna have some ramifications methinks
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by Heero »

I think in t-ice's example, the clerics of those two faiths really wouldnt advertise even being clerics, even going as far as not casting spells in the presence of non-believers (dont higher level spells require a cleric to shout their deities name from the rooftops?). But how can ya really enforce this sort of thing in an online environment when there might only be 4 other people with whom to play, 3 of which arent followers, or are more likely directly opposed, to your god/goddess? Do ya force Player A, the Sharran, to not use any of his class abilities unless he is willing to let every player with whom he is playing know that he is, in fact, a Sharran?

Dont get me wrong, I think a Sharran or Mask-jersian (whats a follower of Mask actually called?) cleric should be played in such a manner that they dont do nuthin ta let anyone know they are a follower of said deities, or even a cleric at all; however, if played like this the PC should be ostracized, ending up completely alone, unless they have a dedicated group of like-minded PC or some DM is willing to cater to them. Even then, grouping with PCs of opposing, or even different in the case of the deities mentioned, faiths would be extremely difficult and full of not using any class abilities lest justifiable CvC be risked. Its ICly hard, even akin to walking around with a drow, or similar, on the surface of a good aligned region. My last PC was retired, despite not even being a cleric, because it was known, or at least heavily suspected, to be a Dark Moon due to my horrible timing of becoming involved in a Dark Moon plot being run on the exact same day he was created. Other PCs, rightfully so, had every IC reason to suspect, so to the trashbin he went.

So what my point with this? Well, it should be hard and ya should know what yer gettin into. Ive come to the realization that ALFA doesnt really lend itself to these types of PCs as youll very infrequently have any room to play your PC the way youd want as nearly every DM session will involve those that have every reason to kill you, some of which could kill you in a single round. It just aint worth it.

The other option is to say, 'Woshippers of deity X, Y, and Z dont have to proclaim their allegiances as they are sneaky mcsneakersons.", as tice suggests. This is kinda breaking immersion and canon IMO though.

Anyway, my opinions are my own. They should not be taken to heart by anyone as they pretty frequently are pretty much horrible. This (and other reasons) is why I am not paid to do any real thinkin here.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by Heero »

Also,

First in with tl;dr.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by hollyfant »

Heero wrote:(dont higher level spells require a cleric to shout their deities name from the rooftops?)
Nope.
(whats a follower of Mask actually called?)
Maskarran.
it should be hard and ya should know what yer gettin into.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by t-ice »

Still, the question between seeing whatever passes for the holy symbol and knowing it for what it is, remains and probably needs a ruling. Actively trying to disguise the holy symbol doesn't prevent it from being "boldly presented", after all. And people in the heat of combat supposedly better focus on things waved at them, than to intricately study what other small objects are being waved around. Sure Torm's holy symbol would never work disguised, but Leira, Mask, Shar?

Saying that evil clerics of disguise-y gods have no better way to hide their identities than to "keep it in their pants" reeks of forcing a black/white simplistic game to me, but eh, someone else is calling the shots on this.

Rather than taking the phb as bible and debating on the word "boldly", it should really be what interpretation makes for a better game. (Which, among other things, is the most emphasized lesson of the dmg.)

We have those rp fancy skill ranks, here's one chance to make them count. It'll still be very hard to play a cleric of Shar, but at least there's a chance you'll not be found out if in an emergency you end up having to use your powers. And it gives reason to thematically nicely focus on those "McSneaky" skills. You basically have to roll every time you use your abilities, so the chances stack up against you in time, and likely you'll still only use your powers in dire situations.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by Heero »

Yeah, it shouldnt be impossible black/white, but it should be difficult. I wasnt implying any player should be 'forced' to do anything. I was merely giving my belief of how members of these faiths would interact in this world based upon my understanding of the faiths.

The example of Shar is sort of an extreme one in that followers of Selune - which we have plenty of, including some higher level clerics - should be able to identify that black disc in a heartbeat when you whip it out to call your Sharran powaz. There are very few deities whose followers would tolerate a Sharran, and at least some of the followers of these other deities, Clerics or Paladins of Lathander for instance, would have every reason to know what they were seeing, as well.

The examples of Mask and Leira are less extreme, and yer right, I think, in saying most other people really wouldnt know exactly what they were looking at.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by Brokenbone »

DM announcements aren't necessarily DM discussion invitations (though granted, Heero is a BG DM, so hell, post away I guess).

Here's a thread for everyone to go mess around in if needed: http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... led+patron

It's unfortunately not the only such thread.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by Heero »

I am no longer a BGDM. I was demoted.

I should really keep my nose out of places it dont belong, but I did post my little disclaimer at the end of my first post. Maybe I should add it to my signature.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by t-ice »

Apparently my initial reply to this was misposted in the wrong place. Sorry about that :oops:
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by paazin »

Discussion on the matter is fine. Knowledge checks can be thrown about and such for non-obvious ones; however, the surest way to avoid all his is avoiding turning undead with people you don't know (which was the implicit hint in the announcement).

Hiding it while displaying it (by way of a sleight of hand vs spot) doesn't fly with me though -- you're to brandish it so the undead are in fear of it and that wouldn't be possible if you try to be secretive with it.
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by dergon darkhelm »

BB links the older discussion that iirc came about due to differing interpretations on just such issue back in NWN1.

My PC Sharran priest had been (with maxed bluff and persuade ranks) passing as a Waukeenar cleric. His "true" holy symbol was a permanently invisible disc tucked deep away. He had cast spells and turned undead falsely in the name of Waukeen for his entire IC existance. This was done under the explicit direction of the leader of the Cult of the Nightmaiden in WD.

On WD, TLR, and DF this was never an issue. The mechanics were never questioned.

Upon moving to SD and Sembia in particular a year or more later, this ran into a differing interpreatation by the DM team. BB's PC cleric, also a hidden something ( I still don't know what faith) had spent *his* enitre IC existance *not* casting or channeling enregy under a ruling that such would be an exposure of his faith for other PCs to see.

That was around 3-4 years ago, and I don't think it got settled any further than "DM discretion" on a server by server basis..... and ....since is in the BG server forum by the BG HDM...... 'nuff said.
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dergon darkhelm
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Re: Turning/Rebuking Undead

Post by dergon darkhelm »

ahh--- sidebar--

I chuckle at myself laughing at my own intensity on the topic from a few years back. Shows you what 8 months of RL running from CvC can do to a person's psychological state. :)
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