Speeds and armor

[Veilan]

A system that imposes penalties after some time based on on-engine will lead to cludges and is awful far as a DM event is concerned. People will game around the system, as they do with buff duration and RP now, and it will just add a layer of frustration to game so as to avoid the penalties. Server time isn't anywhere near IC time on a DM event.

If you put some penalties/bonuses to armor, at least put them so that they're on when the armor is on.

I mostly concur with this. We want something certain to be reckoned with when making armour choices for a situation, and not something that is just a nuisance in effect (just like we should never support any nutrition requirement scripts...).

[mogonk]

Ok, what if the check for fatigue was done per round, (maybe starting on the first round, maybe after the first few rounds, depending on what people decide) and fatigue only lasted until the end of combat?

Fail one check, fatigued, fail two, exhausted. Or if that's too draconian, just leave it at fatigued. Relatively low DC's so that higher level PCs or those spec'ed for heavy armor use wouldn't need to worry very much about it. Works to provide balance, none of the issues with the system discussed above, and penalizes those who would be best suited for armor use less heavily than others.

[Regalis]

Ok, what if the check for fatigue was done per round, (maybe starting on the first round, maybe after the first few rounds, depending on what people decide) and fatigue only lasted until the end of combat?

Fail one check, fatigued, fail two, exhausted. Or if that's too draconian, just leave it at fatigued. Relatively low DC's so that higher level PCs or those spec'ed for heavy armor use wouldn't need to worry very much about it. Works to provide balance, none of the issues with the system discussed above, and penalizes those who would be best suited for armor use less heavily than others.

There is no duration: until end of combat. Makes for an awkward implementation. Also, the combat heartbeat script fires more than once per round and at different rates for different creatures.

You can put it in the general heartbeat, but that's not guaranteed to fire once per round either.

[Zelknolf]

There is no duration: until end of combat. Makes for an awkward implementation. Also, the combat heartbeat script fires more than once per round and at different rates for different creatures.

You can put it in the general heartbeat, but that's not guaranteed to fire once per round either.

You could put it in a pseudoheartbeat, which would be.

Though server load could still potentially make rounds be longer than 6 seconds.

[t-ice]

A (fortitude) save will only serve to inconvenience, and possible endanger, low-level chars, whereas high levels will cruise along with impunity. It will almost surely not lead to more varied characters, it will just make it more an uphill struggle to get PCs to sweet levels.

The real issue is "soft" chars getting the short end of the stick (rogues, wizards) due to RL combat. And the AI is often annoyingly smart enough to gang up on these glass cannons, no matter if they try to hide behind the tanks. Effective tanking in NWN2 combat is very hard to do, if the enemy knows how to game it and there's no cramped quarters.

For rogues at least, they should always enter combat in hide mode, perhaps this will help them when the AI picks its targets in the beginning of battle. I'm not sure if, and how much, this helps, maybe some rogue players can enlighten me?

As for wizards ... invisiblity? Killing the enemy wizards first is what every combat group with half a brain _should_ normally do, and what PCs would almost surely do against NPCs, so to an extent wizards bring this on themselves.

[Blindhamsterman]

Arguably, till a PC starts casting a spell they shouldn't obviously be a wizard however. Furthermore, Invisibility is currently banned.

What SHOULD be done, is tanks should actually take the indimidate skill and make use of taunt, as it's that that keeps enemies on you and not the squishy folk you're ment to be protect, but of course thats assuming that the tank wants to do their job as a true tank, and not simply act as the well defended warrior that hits stuff. (it also implies a few points in charisma which may or may not have otherwise been a consideration)

[mogonk]

The real issue is "soft" chars getting the short end of the stick

Not as far as I'm concerned. That's not the issue for me at all. Not even a little bit.

I think I'm approaching this from a different position than many people, in that I don't look at it in terms of class balance, I look at it in terms of armor balance. Heavy armor is not supposed to be better than light armor. Period. I take issue with any system in which having a capability of wearing heavy armor means that wearing anything less than heavy armor is suboptimal.

In PnP, playing a fighter and only wearing light armor is a choice that makes sense. IRL, it's a choice that makes sense. In NWN2, it's ridiculous. That's the "real issue". Heavy armor is unbalanced.

Balance the armor and you're taking a step towards balancing the classes. Try to simply balance the classes, and you're still not addressing the issue of diversity within a given class that is created by the armor imbalance.

[Swift]

Balance the armor and you're taking a step towards balancing the classes. Try to simply balance the classes, and you're still not addressing the issue of diversity within a given class that is created by the armor imbalance.

Except you wouldn't be, thanks to bugs in some classes key abilities that render them utterly useless (eg Uncanny Dodge).

Which is, once again, why penalizing heavy armor will simply do just that: penalize someone who wears heavy armor. It wont lead to new tactics, it isn't a step towards better balance, it won't help classes that can't wear heavy armor. The class abilities that are broken now (and often reduce that classes survivability) are still going to be broken after you penalize heavy armor.

It wouldn't be a fix for anything and it wouldn't be a step in the right direction balance wise, often thanks to other existing bugs that are beyond our ability to fix.

[Veilan]

Swift, I know you can be stubborn when you want, but you're smarter than that - it has been sufficiently stated that other class abilities are certainly not a reason for penalising heavy armour, and that instead there should maybe be some compensation for that.

But surely, you must admit and see that heavy armour has gotten far more benefits than it has in PnP, and is about the only viable armour choice if you have the proficiency? I mean, look at yourself, and tell me how often you decide to wear medium or light armour for tactical reasons.

Cheers,

[Swift]

Swift, I know you can be stubborn when you want, but you're smarter than that - it has been sufficiently stated that other class abilities are certainly not a reason for penalising heavy armour, and that instead there should maybe be some compensation for that.

Zalanthe has often walked into dangerous situations with nothing more than a dress and a sword

Aside from that, I have suggested on numerous occasions (likely a couple in this thread) that our time would be far better spent brainstorming possible compensation for those broken class issues, as that would almost certainly bring more benefit than this proposed change, which I still cannot see being such an issue considering up until this thread, its been something that nobody seemed overly concerned with since I joined ALFA nearly 10 years ago.

Surely trying to work out adequate compensation for class abilities that are utterly broken has to be a better use of our time than trying to solve an issue that few have even considered an issue for the best part of this communities existence?

Or do I simply live in bizzaro world where we fix things that aren't really broken before the things that are?

[Veilan]

Or do I simply live in bizzaro world

You do...

where we fix things that aren't really broken before the things that are?

But this ain't the reason why .

[mogonk]

Balance the armor and you're taking a step towards balancing the classes. Try to simply balance the classes, and you're still not addressing the issue of diversity within a given class that is created by the armor imbalance.

Except you wouldn't be, thanks to bugs in some classes key abilities that render them utterly useless (eg Uncanny Dodge).

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Should Uncanny Dodge be fixed? Of course. But there's no relationship between these two issues. Is heavy armor overpowered because Uncanny Dodge is broken? Hell no. Is Uncanny Dodge broken because heavy armor is overpowered? Nope. Fix both, but don't use one as an excuse not to fix the other.

In PnP, movement reduction is THE balancing factor for the armor types. When the central balancing factor is removed entirely, it makes sense to add a new one. I do not understand how anyone can argue with that. It seems so obvious. I mean...the original balancing factor was there for a reason, right?

[Swift]

I do not understand how anyone can argue with that. It seems so obvious. I mean...the original balancing factor was there for a reason, right?

As has been pointed out numerous times, this isn't PnP, and the rules don't always work out for the better on our platform. We don't abide strictly by PnP rules on everything for that exact reason.

[Blindhamsterman]

but it is also fair to say that some kind of reasonable balancing factor wouldn't go amiss, it's just not so easy to work out one that is agreeable to most, it needs to be a genuine deterrant to make heavy armour not absolutely a 'must have' while at the same time keeping it worth while to use.

[mogonk]

it needs to be a genuine deterrant to make heavy armour not absolutely a 'must have' while at the same time keeping it worth while to use.

Exactly. Arguably PnP went too far in the other direction. Unless you had a mount or some form of magical transportation such as flight, heavy armor was terrible. We don't want to go that far.

As has been pointed out numerous times, this isn't PnP, and the rules don't always work out for the better on our platform. We don't abide strictly by PnP rules on everything for that exact reason.

Right. so don't use the same balancing mechanism from PnP. Use one better suited to NWN2 and the ALFA setting. I'm not suggesting we abide by PnP rules, I'm suggesting we abide by principles of balance which are common to all well-designed games.

Please help me to understand what it is you're saying, so that I can better respond appropriately. Is it that:

A) You do not believe it matters that armor types be balanced.

or

B) You think they already are balanced.

...or both?