Level 1 Start - The Poll

[Veilan]

not a "over my dead body" issue

*draws the line in the sand, plants the flag, and loads his revolutionary war musket*

[Brother Humphrey]

Despite protestation from the fellow who clued me into this thread, I have to say I'm for a 1K boost on creation. Not just due to survival issues, but as several have said, it permits greater ability to actually perform those feats of knowledge a multi-classed planned character is supposed to be able to perform from the get go. Rather than having to simply RP them out and pray the guy on the other end of the planet watching you do the funky chicken, so to speak, goes along with your emoted spellcasting (for a toon that's supposed to be a fighter/mage, but is currently just a ftr, for instance) or your pocketpicking (for your sneaky, blackhearted mage/rogue still only lvl1 wiz) and so on, such characters will now have the actual ability which will not require a disruption of the flow of the RP and IC action. Yes, the extra hp of course would be nice, but ever since I played on Haze V1, with its 1k boost on creation, I've always missed the ability to plan and actually play, straight out of the box, a multi-classed character or simply a multi-leveled single classer who's supposed to have some actual experience under his belt as per his/her character background claims.

A person working on a new idea for a toon could explain (either in the bio or in character or both) how he or she trained under so-and-so for such and such a time, and completed the training successfully/was kicked out with the mentor sending him/her out into the great wide world to fend for him/herself.

On a side note, yes, I agree that the xp bonus should be awarded upon tendering a character bio and not before.

I be tired now. sleep be calling me.

[Veilan]

Despite protestation from the fellow who clued me into this thread, I have to say I'm for a 1K boost on creation. Not just due to survival issues, but as several have said, it permits greater ability to actually perform those feats of knowledge a multi-classed planned character is supposed to be able to perform from the get go. Rather than having to simply RP them out and pray the guy on the other end of the planet watching you do the funky chicken, so to speak, goes along with your emoted spellcasting (for a toon that's supposed to be a fighter/mage, but is currently just a ftr, for instance) or your pocketpicking (for your sneaky, blackhearted mage/rogue still only lvl1 wiz) and so on, such characters will now have the actual ability which will not require a disruption of the flow of the RP and IC action. Yes, the extra hp of course would be nice, but ever since I played on Haze V1, with its 1k boost on creation, I've always missed the ability to plan and actually play, straight out of the box, a multi-classed character or simply a multi-leveled single classer who's supposed to have some actual experience under his belt as per his/her character background claims.

A person working on a new idea for a toon could explain (either in the bio or in character or both) how he or she trained under so-and-so for such and such a time, and completed the training successfully/was kicked out with the mentor sending him/her out into the great wide world to fend for him/herself.

On a side note, yes, I agree that the xp bonus should be awarded upon tendering a character bio and not before.

I be tired now. sleep be calling me.

So you want 1000xp extra so you can stop having to cheese? I'm rather certain I gloriously misread you there .

I understand that it might, at a first glance, seem to offer more RP, but that's just if you think you can only RP having something, not working to earn something. In fact, I think your approach is from the wrong end of thought. If you don't have abilities, then you don't have them. A character can start as a rogue and learn to become a wizard, but he is not a "rogue/wizard" on level 1 simply because the player plans to make him that should he reach level 2. Roleplaying that development to level 2 should not somehow be a strain for a good RPer, it should be an interesting and fun challenge. You can't cast spells, but maybe you're looking interestedly at spellscrolls, using your UMD ranks to try to cast some to get the hang of it. Maybe you roleplay some lessons with a wizard tutor. Or hey, maybe your IC development actually means that during those 1000xp, your character finds becoming a fighter much more sensible and postpones his wizard dreams until later.

In any case, you don't pretend you have abilities you don't.

I guess you were seriously tired, because "I'm forced to do bad roleplay by the hardships of starting level 1!" is just not an argument that does justice to the quality RP that you're capable of, BH!

Cheers,

[I-KP]

I guess you were seriously tired, because "I'm forced to do bad roleplay by the hardships of starting level 1!" is just not an argument that does justice to the quality RP that you're capable of, BH!

Probably in spite of Level 1 rather than because of it, I'll wager.

[Blindhamsterman]

in p&p (which we strive to be like wherever possible) there are rules for starting as a multiclass PCs... it's a common concept of D&D, and often for the kind of background you might wish to create and play as, it requires that you are infact already partially trained in doing both things involved in your multi class. In fairness I guess the best way to handle a character that is a multiclass spellcaster is take the caster class on 1st and RP the weapon training or skill training by taking a few ranks or a feat appropiate class.

I can take a look if its possible to create something like the pnp level 1 mulitclass rules if it was of interest to people (which it certainly sounds like it is)

Despite protestation from the fellow who clued me into this thread, I have to say I'm for a 1K boost on creation. Not just due to survival issues, but as several have said, it permits greater ability to actually perform those feats of knowledge a multi-classed planned character is supposed to be able to perform from the get go. Rather than having to simply RP them out and pray the guy on the other end of the planet watching you do the funky chicken, so to speak, goes along with your emoted spellcasting (for a toon that's supposed to be a fighter/mage, but is currently just a ftr, for instance) or your pocketpicking (for your sneaky, blackhearted mage/rogue still only lvl1 wiz) and so on, such characters will now have the actual ability which will not require a disruption of the flow of the RP and IC action. Yes, the extra hp of course would be nice, but ever since I played on Haze V1, with its 1k boost on creation, I've always missed the ability to plan and actually play, straight out of the box, a multi-classed character or simply a multi-leveled single classer who's supposed to have some actual experience under his belt as per his/her character background claims.

A person working on a new idea for a toon could explain (either in the bio or in character or both) how he or she trained under so-and-so for such and such a time, and completed the training successfully/was kicked out with the mentor sending him/her out into the great wide world to fend for him/herself.

On a side note, yes, I agree that the xp bonus should be awarded upon tendering a character bio and not before.

I be tired now. sleep be calling me.

So you want 1000xp extra so you can stop having to cheese? I'm rather certain I gloriously misread you there .

I understand that it might, at a first glance, seem to offer more RP, but that's just if you think you can only RP having something, not working to earn something. In fact, I think your approach is from the wrong end of thought. If you don't have abilities, then you don't have them. A character can start as a rogue and learn to become a wizard, but he is not a "rogue/wizard" on level 1 simply because the player plans to make him that should he reach level 2. Roleplaying that development to level 2 should not somehow be a strain for a good RPer, it should be an interesting and fun challenge. You can't cast spells, but maybe you're looking interestedly at spellscrolls, using your UMD ranks to try to cast some to get the hang of it. Maybe you roleplay some lessons with a wizard tutor. Or hey, maybe your IC development actually means that during those 1000xp, your character finds becoming a fighter much more sensible and postpones his wizard dreams until later.

In any case, you don't pretend you have abilities you don't.

I guess you were seriously tired, because "I'm forced to do bad roleplay by the hardships of starting level 1!" is just not an argument that does justice to the quality RP that you're capable of, BH!

Cheers,

[hollyfant]

"I'm forced to do bad roleplay by the hardships of starting level 1!" is just not an argument that does justice to the quality RP that you're capable of, BH!

Actually, it has been pointed out (and rightfully so, in my opinion) that some character concepts are almost (mind you: almost) forced to "meta-game" in order to be viable. The grandiose swordsman with more luck than skill, the fearless barbarian and the priest with blind faith all have to find excuses to cower in the local tavern for a week or month until they're not quite so "squishy" any more.
It can be done, but is it fun?

(Yes. Yes it is, or it can be. Roleplay, people. Roleplay! )

I sincerely hope that whatever may come out of this debate will be either unobtrusive or optional. Some of us enjoy starting out small.

[dergon darkhelm]

I understand the desire to RP above your HP at start.

I started Rathalan Whitsword as a middle aged Helmite priest, already with extensive field experience from numerous campaigns over the last 20 years.

Would it have perhaps have gelled better IC to have him level 3 or 4 at start? Maybe. Did it effect anything IC or hinder RP? No.

[Veilan]

Actually, it has been pointed out (and rightfully so, in my opinion) that some character concepts are almost (mind you: almost) forced to "meta-game" in order to be viable. The grandiose swordsman with more luck than skill, the fearless barbarian and the priest with blind faith all have to find excuses to cower in the local tavern for a week or month until they're not quite so "squishy" any more.

[...]

I sincerely hope that whatever may come out of this debate will be either unobtrusive or optional. Some of us enjoy starting out small.

That's exactly the point. I don't think any of the concepts you mentioned easily qualify as level 1. You can become a fearless, skilled, veteran swordsman. You don't start as one though.

[Blindhamsterman]

equally, who are you to say what concepts a player may wish to make for their PC?

Priest with blind faith could indeed be level1, the swordsman with more luck than skill? sure, make a level 1 fighter or swashbuckler with luck of heroes, the fearless barbarian? sure if you're a barbarian you should be hard to intimidate, its bred in them from being a child, read anything about barbarians and it'll say much the same.

Im happy starting at 1st, and would probably continue to anyway, for mulitclass concepts it'd be nice to have a better way to represent it than simply RPing having the skills, but again Im quite happy to continue to do that myself, done it before, will happily do it again.

On the other hand, how somebody else may want to play, be it level 2 start, ECL race etc (the two above are by the rules the same thing FYI) is entirely up to them, a DM may give pointers on a PCs background if they think it's 'too much' which is fine, but those above seem quite plausable as level 1s to me.

And again, as OGR said, its FAR more OOC to sit about in a tavern waiting for someone big to show up for characters such as the barbarian, or ranger types (though probably quite IC for other classes such as a wizard who likely sits about studying all the time anyway)

[oldgrayrogue]

Anyone is free to start a PC as fearless. My 8 year old daughter is fearless which gives my wife and I a daily heart attack. No reason a PC concept can't be. It is correct that you are only as skilled and proficient as your feats and stats allow. Further, any start above level 1 would absolutely be optional. In fact nothing forces any PC to level up ever. You can choose to stay at level 1 forever, and roleplay that aspect of your PC concept forever if that is what you prefer. It is about options for roleplay.

I think what this poll thread shows is that our community is quite split on the issue, and a significant portion of the community hungers for more options for roleplay. In my opinion we should be open to the desires of large percentages of our community.

[Veilan]

I think what this poll thread shows is that our community is quite split on the issue, and a significant portion of the community hungers for more options for roleplay. In my opinion we should be open to the desires of large percentages of our community.

And in my opinion, a change to a pillar-like feature requires at least 2/3 in support, not about a third.

[I-KP]

And in my opinion, a change to a pillar-like feature requires at least 2/3 in support, not about a third.

It's not a third, it's ~46%. Those who are content with either option could have their votes transferred and distributed equally, or discounted, and the result would still be ~46% of the ALFA player base being content with some form of address to the forced Level 1 start.

[Veilan]

Those not in active support are not in active support. The onus is on those seeking change to provide the momentum .

Clearly, there's not a majority, let alone one warranting fundamental change, and clearly, this was meant to be an interest gauge rather than a stimulant for action.

I can understand a lot of points made in favour of level 2 or 3 start, but saying "omg you can't ignore them!" is a bit like saying you can't ignore the majority of carnivores in a vegetarian restaurant.

Perhaps we can reach something along the lines of HP, I still think my feat alteration suggestion is an acceptable compromise for instance, but principally, I consider level 1 part of the ALFA experience.

[oldgrayrogue]

I agree with Veilan that a fundamental change in how we do things should not result when the community is just about evenly split on an issue. Maybe it does merit a compromise, or a "pilot" type exploratory change. Not sure. Clearly it merits further discussion among the community and Admin in my view.

I would like to know what percentage of voters (on both sides of the debate) are active players in the community (meaning playing PCs, Admin, DMing and/or building/ scripting). I also don't believe a change from a level 1 start to say a level 2 start is the fundamental change it is being made out to be. The fact is that the progression from level 1 to 2 in ALFA is fairly rapid anyway. In reality it is not the intense, character building, character defining, deep roleplay experience that those in favor of a level 1 start believe it to be. Can it be if you want it to? Sure. Is it? Not from what I have seen. I'm not interested in "forcing" or "encouraging" people to have to RP a certain way right out of the box if they want their concept to survive. I'd rather give them the option to play how they want to play, with the chance for a more robust and diverse PC background (as many have described) and frankly a lessening of the risk of "one hit death" that leads to OOC influence in RP, whether conscious or subconscious. I think a higher starting level does that without fundamentally changing what it means to play in ALFA. I also frankly believe what I see as a minor change like this might bring more roleplayers into our community and improve the initial experience.

But I also understand the strongly felt feelings of what I view as more than half of those who cared enough to respond to this poll. This poll, like others I'd like to have, as Veilan said was meant to "take the temperature" of the community, so that we can decide as a community whether it makes sense to change and adapt to respond to our membership, or not.

[rorax]

I think there should be some minimal number of forum posts to participate in polls.