Circle Kick and Toughness

[jmecha]

Circle Kick is currently banned and Toughness is currently a level 1 only feat in ALFA, I was curious if standards would be willing to reevaluate the status of the two feats and possible make Circle Kick available and allow Toughness to be taken at any level a feat is available instead of only as a Level 1 feat.

[furtivefigure]

I had no idea Toughness was only to be taken at lvl 1. What's the thinking behind that?

[johnlewismcleod]

Likely done in the name of "balance" (much like the current discussion on Appraise and other feats). The problem I see is that the actual IG result of these efforts to "make all classes equal" by monkeying with perks for physically weaker classes and races pushes everyone toward vanilla Fighter/Cleric.

I like diversity and skill use, but I seem to be in the minority on that .

Although, I have to admit that I don't see it having the effect IG that I would expect. Players still seem to deploy all the various classes even though the fighter/cleric is now clearly the most viable money/XP engine IG, so what do I know?

[hollyfant]

The reasoning behind restricting Toughness, was that NWN Toughness isn't the "real", PnP Toughness (+3hp) but a more potent, first-level only version from a Forgotten Realms splatbook. Circle Kick was banned to protect the innocent: it keeps changing your current target in combat and thus draw "Attacks of Opportunity".

Those are the reasons. Personally, I'm all in favour of allowing both feats to be taken, at any level. But revoking rules is a lot more difficult to accomplish in ALFA than making new ones. However, why not try Rotku's new system for change?

[HEEGZ]

why not try Rotku's new system for change?

What he said. It's not an impossibility, but there needs to be some support and reasoning behind a push to alter them again.

[Jaokith]

The reasoning behind restricting Toughness, was that NWN Toughness isn't the "real", PnP Toughness (+3hp) but a more potent, first-level only version from a Forgotten Realms splatbook. Circle Kick was banned to protect the innocent: it keeps changing your current target in combat and thus draw "Attacks of Opportunity".

Those are the reasons. Personally, I'm all in favour of allowing both feats to be taken, at any level. But revoking rules is a lot more difficult to accomplish in ALFA than making new ones. However, why not try Rotku's new system for change?

I can only speak from my experience of playing a monk in the single player game but I haven't experienced that at all. Maybe I'm good at keeping my target because as recently as this past weekend I was playing a monk character in the single player game. I took the Circle Kick feat and when it was used I had no attacks of opportunities against my character nor did I ever lose my original target. The feat did what it was supposed to do... granted my monk character an extra attack on a nearby foe that wasn't the original target.

Maybe there was some issue earlier on but if there was it doesn't seem to be there currently... at least not in my single player campaign. I'm with you and anyone else that thinks these two feats should be allowed.

[Mick]

I played monks through both NWN1 and NWN2 single player games and IIRC, the changing of target with circle kick happened in NWN1, but not in NWN2.

[Rotku]

Jaokith has sent me a PM about getting Circle Kick added back in. Will do a bit of testing tomorrow, and see what I can find. If it is as you guys say, I have no objections to adding it back, but will have to check with the other Admin.

You can see a thread about it in the Admin forum.

[hollyfant]

Are we still working on getting these two feats approved? Or has the issue died?

[jmecha]

I would be willing to help with testing circle on one of the Beta Servers if testing is still needed.

[Rotku]

Just bumped the thread in the Standards forum.

[HEEGZ]

I don't believe Toughness was discussed. Will try to make a decision on CK soon.

[hollyfant]

I don't believe Toughness was discussed.

The case against the Toughness limitation is simple. Yes, it's not the PnP Toughness. But:

• We don't have the PnP Toughness feat. We only have this one.
• It's not an overpowered feat (the equivalent of a +2 Constitution, -1 Concentration, -1 Fortitude item).
• Limiting it to 1st level just shifts more power to the already potent Strongheart Halflings and Humans. Especially with Able Learner having the same restriction.
• Dwarves are now forced to take it if they wish to keep the option to become Dwarven Defenders, thus discouraging natural character development.
• Indomitable Soul and Steadfast Determination both depend on Toughness, so limiting the number of characters who have access to Toughness limits overall choice and, again, encourages "builds" rather than living, breathing characters.
• Toughness adds less to a character's chances of survival at 1st level than some other feats. Forcing the choice increases PC mortality rates.

[Rotku]

• Toughness adds less to a character's chances of survival at 1st level than some other feats. Forcing the choice increases PC mortality rates.

That's a good thing

Anyway, call is in for CK. Leaving as is. For reasoning, you can go see the Standards forum (I think everyone can see it).

My personal feelings on it - I'm fine with the call HEEGZ and Veilan made. I've never liked those little silly books that WotC has spewed forth...

[Mulu]

Seems to me that every time you guys nerf a class other than fighter or cleric, you just make fighter and cleric that much more powerful comparatively speaking.

I was also piqued by this statement in Standards:

I don't like feats that don't offer choice, but are basically mandatory if you want to play a class competetively.

So, is ALFA going to ban Point Blank Shot, Weapon Specialization, and Divine Might? I can think of many others as well.

I got no horse in this race anymore, but the path of nerfdom does ultimately lead to human fighter/cleric dominance, since their core abilities are hard to nerf. Human fighter in particular would be a great level 1 option under ALFA for 3 starter feats. Something to consider.