NWN2 Cleric Domains

[Riotnrrd]

Wow.

NWN2 Cleric Domains are all hosed up.

Do we want to make these as close to canon as possible? Shouldn't be too hard... have to edit domains.2da to point to the correct spells (assuming they exist).

I'll post what they should be in the near future.

[Dorn]

Just dont take my 'Blacklion' animal domain summons!
My Blacklion Tribe shaman RP is built around moi kittay!!!

But seriously, a lot of those abilities seem hard to replicate without a DM....as far as i can see.

And it seems some are a bit odd.

Ie strength domain gives you Bulls at caster level 2. But you get it at level 2 anyway....

[AcadiusLost]

The problems we run into with these are that the canon handling (extra spell slot specifically for a spell of that domain) isn't really feasible, nor are many of the canon abilities for the domains. I helped AlmightyTDawg with his domain rebalance for NWN1-ALFA a few years back, but that was a pretty large undertaking and required a lot of back-and-forth debate about what was balanced and fair; when considering what abilities to add to what was arguably already the most powerful class in the game. Fortunately, I was able to just help out at the implementation stage, avoiding all the circular "balance" warfare.

If someone wants to open that can of worms again for NWN2, they can; but I'd not think it high-priority when compared to many of the other fixes and improvements we'd like to get into the core systems.

[Riotnrrd]

So I guess what I'm talking about is more of this... I started looking into spells that needed fixing, someone suggested Aid as a problem, I noticed that Aid is supposed to be for Clerics and Good and Luck Domains...

Well, I took a look at the domains.2da, and it seemed like there were a LOT of problems in it. All domains.2da appears to do is link Cleric levels to domains, and where they intersect denote the spell that the cleric should receive at that level. But they are completely wrong.

It would be a couple hours work at most, to go through the matrix, and identify spells which should be available to the priest per the FRCS, then add the right index number to the table cell.

[Brokenbone]

Complete can of worms, at least if you're talking about the wacky granted powers (many of which seem obsessed with DR, especially the elemental ones... which I guess should be "turn outsider(elemental)." Usually they're overpowered, but some are underpowered and would be quite cool to synch up to PnP. Death domain, I'm lookin' at you!

Again though, much like bardic fields of inspiring regeneration (I'm sure there's other bizarre stuff out there as well), who exactly wants to take on the debate associated with potential "nerfs." "Took away my DR, and I still have a crappy spell list that the DR helped compensate for", etc. Bah.

I guess this is just simple concurrence with the "wow" / "hosed up", as well as AL's observations.

[Riotnrrd]

Complete can of worms, at least if you're talking about the wacky granted powers

I'm talking more about the domain spells themselves, not the special powers granted. Domain spells are listed as 1+1 in the PHB, where the +1 has to be a spell chosen from the domain lists. Whether or not PCs do this is of course their own affair, I don't think we have mechanics to force them to so, but most will want to RP their priests appropriately. One reason clerics can't currently pick a domain spell for every spell level is that there isn't a domain spell for each level! Consider first the PHB canon spell list for the strength domain:

PHB Strength Domain:
1: Enlarge Person
2: Bull's Strength
3: Magic Vestment
4: Spell Immunity
5: Righteous Might
6: Stoneskin
7: Bigby's Grasping Hand
8: Bigby's Clenched Fist
9: Bigby's Crushing Hand

We have almost all of these spells. Now look at what the strength domain currently gives in ALFA for spells:
1: Bull's Strength
3: Divine Power

That's it.

Now, we don't have ALL of the spells available, obviously. But I feel that moving towards an approximation of canon is a good thing. The first, and no-brainer step would be, to make the domain spell lists consistent with what we DO have in ALFA. We could later consider adding spells that are appropriate to a certain domain in lieu of unavailable spells, or creating spells that are missing, but that might be a 'bigger can of worms' as you say. For now, moving towards a closer canon should be our goal, as it's part of the ALFA charter.

[hollyfant]

Actually, the first step should be to take away a spellslot for each level. Then that has to be given back, but in such a way that only the domain spells can be used for it. Tricky, tricky stuff. I suggested dumping it on the "would have been nice" pile.

[Runestaff]

I'm talking more about the domain spells themselves, not the special powers granted.

I like this idea, but the "special powers granted" is a pretty thorny issue in itself. Somebody needs to adjudicate what happens to clerics with domain-granted feats that aren't canon. For example, the Earth Domain in NWN2 grants the Toughness feat. Back in the beta stages early last year, Standards dictated that Toughness can only be taken at level one. What happens to a cleric who loses this feat?

I'd love to see more domains made closer to canon, but it seems you will either need to leave the special powers alone, making clerics even more powerful as a result, or strip the current domain abilities, which might nerf particular PCs.

[AcadiusLost]

Generally speaking, the NWN2 "take" on domains gives a nice boost at 1st level, and an extra spell every now and then later in advancement. Arguably, this is an implementation that is more favorable to low-level PCs than the "one additional spell each spell level, but less in the way of free feats/resistances/abilities" PnP handling. Priced as gear, the Domain abilities would be pretty astounding rewards for a world like ALFA; given as racial abilities, they'd at least warrant a +1 ECL in many cases. I'd say it's a fair tradeoff.

I do like the versatility and flavor of the one-spell-per-level deal (well, two if you count both domains), but it's an option that requires a lot of hammering out, and in my opinion, probably shouldn't be combined with the "free feat(s)/resistances/abilities" bumps at 1st level that NWN2 grants.

[Ithildur]

Has there been a ruling/determination on domains yet for alfa2? Vanilla nwn2 domains, or have they been modded for alfa2 to fit canon?


has no one yet rolled up a cleric?

[Mick]

Vanilla NWN2 domains for now.

[Riotnrrd]

Some day (soon) I'm going to consider making available proper domain spells....

[Ulyetia]

Well, with the addition of the ability to load Haks before character creation, could we not add in the remaining domains that could be nice for some of the clerics out there who would have them.

Example: Repose for Kelemvor instead of Undeath.

[johnlewismcleod]

"Took away my DR, and I still have a crappy spell list that the DR helped compensate for", etc. Bah.

This is a valid concern, IMO. While the NWN2 "vanilla" may be off of canon and a bit silly on occassion, I suspect quite a bit of effort went into balancing the classes and races.

When taking spells, domains, bonus points, etc., it only makes since to reflect on the impact. Any positive given always comes with a corresponding negative, and taking away either can leave a class or race significantly "nerfed".