Detect Evil and You

[Mayhem]

Actually ..now that I think on it .......I wouldn't mind seeing the "faint" aura removed from detection as a means to keep usage more appropriate. That way, non outsider, non cleric evil PCs wouldn't give aura until high level.

Thoughts?

Hmm - at first, I thought "great - that would keep 90% of evil pcs safe from detection, and only those who have really dedicated themselves to evil will show up."

However, then I thought "Uh oh - only those who have really dedicated themselves to evil will show up." If only those who have actively dedicated themselves to evil will show up, evil-detection will become a lot more reliable and be used more actively IMO.

If a paladin knows that the evil he has detected is certain to be somebody pretty nasty he is more likely to start taking an active interest, whereas if detect evil in a busy tavern shows up not just Jack the Ripper but also the guard that's a bit sadistic towards prisoners, the boy who pulls wings off flies and the barman who maliciously spits in the stew because then Jack is safer than if he is the only one in the place that gets a big "EVIL, AND MEANS IT!" neon sign above his head.

[hollyfant]

Apart from evil creatures, the official rules only mention Clerics of an evil deity (not evil clerics, btw). Shouldn't we expand this to:

• Blackguards (duh!)
• Favoured Souls of an evil deity
• 4th level Rangers of an Evil deity
• Divine champions of an evil deity.
• Hellfire Warlocks (if we don't ban the PrC)?

[Brokenbone]

Scripted solutions that'd take into account this many inches of wood, or stone, or would work if cast on one side of a wooden door which was an AT to a cottage (a separate area) where an evil PC or NPC was cowering inside, would respond to cheap countermeasures that would also need to be made available as RP spell countermeasures, or to precautions that might be written onto placeables ("This door has a thin sheet of lead nailed to its inner side"...) hey, if someone wants to give it a crack, lotsa luck. I do not foresee a script doing half the job an alert DM would be required for.

[Zelknolf]

RP countermeasures would require that lead be tacked on the inside of more than the door!

Unless it's a stone house. 'cuz, y'know, bricks tend to not be a whole f'in foot thick. Even medieval ones.



Anyhow, this is what I get for not following the thread intensely!

Ahem - to spell concentration: doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. There's something more than a squinty gaze and a d20 at the initial activation of the ability, as it is distinguished from the act of maintaining a spell.

To scripted detect evil:

Doable. Probably to more extent than people expect. Most of my code would be entirely useless to you guys, 'cuz it has exactly squat to do with a GUI (and you'd probably have different means for applying nondetection/undetectable alignment. I used temporary feats on a hide item... but yeah; that'd be as much time to modify as it would be to write.) Anyhow, I wrote a generic GetIsConcentrating(object oPC, int nSpellID); kind of function and used delaycommand to make a fake heartbeat to monitor the spells and concentration on them. Simple enough - you use the get current action function, and anything that takes up a standard action makes it return false, and you add a line to spellhooking that writes the last spell id to a variable on the PC (if nSpellID != the variable, the player has cast another spell and has thus lost concentration on the first one). The aura of evil class feature (hinted at in Hollyfant's post -- it's on class descriptions in PnP when a character class radiates an alignment as an extraordinary ability.) is easy enough to check for ( GetLevelByClass(<evil class type>, oPC) -- it gets complicated if ya try to handle multiple auras of evil on the same creatures as separate entities so as to snag the most powerful; I'm sure there'd be almost no objections if you just summed those class levels. After all, what's the aura power on a clr 7/blkgrd 5? Rules say strong, taken literally; logic says overwhelming.)

And eh... mebbe I'm silly to think this, but if it's only checking things inside of a cone spell shape that's 60' long, how often can that be used to actually peer through stone, srsly? We've all been conditioned by NWN1 to not think that a wall looks chunky enough unless it's 30' wide, and it's not pretty enough unless there's vines and foliage and crap all around the base. The spell shape definately respects the Z axis, so it's worth squat v. anyone on top of said wall. Dunno - seems a fair limit to me, with the only sacrafice being the potential for a little more tiptoeing behind cover than was intended and technical limits at the contents of buildings and viewing past ATs. And ya get 5 new spells for it (4 alignment detections and undetectable alignment, right? Maybe 6 if ya add nondetection!)

[FanaticusIncendi]

Other.

IMO in a persistent setting it's an overpowered spell. DM adjudicated or nothing, and even then it carries heavy potential for cheesing and taking the fun out of the game for some (being labeled and ostracized by every goodie on the server when it's hard enough to get game as it is is just counterproductive to what we're all here for).

[NickD]

[...] it carries heavy potential for cheesing and taking the fun out of the game for some (being labeled and ostracized by every goodie on the server [...]

That's not strictly a bad thing. People choose to play evil characters. It's not like it's forced on them. And, more often than not, it is the evil character who takes the fun out of the game for some by being the cheesy kind of evil.

I'm not saying evil should be removed as an option. I think plenty of people play evil very well without going over the top or trying to screw with the "goodie" PCs just because they're a PC and good. But I do think there should be consequences for the choice of character you play.

I don't think it should be automated though. DMed would probably be best.

[Zelknolf]

(being labeled and ostracized by every goodie on the server when it's hard enough to get game as it is is just counterproductive to what we're all here for)

Well, if you're going to say that, I'd say that making a character whose alignment is opposed to the prevalant stance in the area you seek to play in is just counterproductive to what we're all here for.

[dergon darkhelm]

(being labeled and ostracized by every goodie on the server when it's hard enough to get game as it is is just counterproductive to what we're all here for)

Well, if you're going to say that, I'd say that making a character whose alignment is opposed to the prevalant stance in the area you seek to play in is just counterproductive to what we're all here for.

Agreed ....... although a touch of evil on predominatntly good aligned servers can add RP flavor and tension..


But unfortunately, ALFA in the NWN2 incarnation does not as yet have the options available to switch servers when things blow up.

Back in NWN1 if your evil PC got outed or screwed up some plot you could always run to Sembia, TPI or WD and hole up for a few RL months.

I think there has been some leeway on TSM b/c players know that evil PCs don't have many options when they do get into trouble. But this isn't going to extend for long beyond what opposed players think is approriate for their good-aligned PCs for ever.

The onus is on the evil PC to keep his/her actions hidden or clever enough to escape detecyion or to coordiante IC events in such a way as to keep him/herself safe in the event of trouble.

I'm not saying evil should be removed as an option. I think plenty of people play evil very well without going over the top or trying to screw with the "goodie" PCs just because they're a PC and good. But I do think there should be consequences for the choice of character you play.

I don't think it should be automated though. DMed would probably be best.

I think I agree that it should be DMd after reading and considering variables. However, people should play as if these divinations could be performed at any time. On NWN1, imo it was harder to play an evil PC than a good PC. On TSM it is even harder.



edit: I'll confess....I wanted to play another evil PC in NWN2, but I thought it through and decided I wasn't up for the constant effort it requires.

[Zelknolf]

(being labeled and ostracized by every goodie on the server when it's hard enough to get game as it is is just counterproductive to what we're all here for)

Well, if you're going to say that, I'd say that making a character whose alignment is opposed to the prevalant stance in the area you seek to play in is just counterproductive to what we're all here for.

Agreed ....... although a touch of evil on predominatntly good aligned servers can add RP flavor and tension..

No although! The point of my saying that was to illustrate that ALFA isn't a PW full of exclusively-PvEing carebears! ... at least not IC. 'cuz, at least from what I understand, the flavor and tension is part of the deal, and the risk of getting caught is a huge part of the tension for the bad guys, just like the risk that you've befriended a horridly evil PC who's just waiting for the word from a superior to cut some throats is a huge part of the tension for the good guys (yes, bad guys have that problem too, but the times I've played evils and obvious evils-to-be, I found some odd comfort in the simplicity that anyone could/would want to make with the stabby in my direction.)

[Riotnrrd]

Most of the 'evil' PCs Ive played with on NWN2 are awesome. They are clever, ruthless, and selfish, but most aren't chaotic evil bloodthirsty killers whom desire to devour innocent babies (though perhaps some are).

The thing about being 'good', is that you can't just chop someone because they have a weak aura of evil. Sure, you can spread rumors, refuse to travel with them, warn people away, alert the militia, etc, but this kind of tension is GREAT RP. But unless someone evil does something that can actually get them in trouble, like getting caught doing something really horrible, the law (and the 'good') are largely impotent to do them direct mischief.

Merely observing most evil PCs will bear out their hearts, in time, or listening to their words. You don't need a special detect spell to know where 98% of the population sits. The other 2% will probably care enough to protect themselves from these sorts of divinations.

Finally, I think a lot of people might be assuming detect evil would be used only on PCs. THERE ARE A LOT MORE NPCs OUT THERE, and detect evil is perfect for that. This is perfect for DM run events, not just 'OMG you're evil get out of town'.

Still recommend play by 3.5 canon, adjudicate with a DM present, and provide spells and magic items to shield alignment for those whom wish to do so.

[JaydeMoon]

This has been a source of debate between me and others from time to time. I have always had an issue in a PW of anyone using Detect Evil and noting that the level 1 NE rogue walking his dog and otherwise minding his own business is at all detectable through the use of the spell. In single party campaign settings it is fine, but for a PW I feel it is unbalanced and it can definitely put a really quick hamper on the realistic achievement of goals for evil aligned PCs.

Zelk says the risk of getting caught is part of the tension and flavor of being a bad guy, and I agree! But allowing any 1st level divinely inspired schmuck to instantly detect your alignment throws that whole simmering pot of flavor in the garbage. There's no risk that you'll be found out. There is only certainty. Because a PC that CAN detect evil, especially one whose powers are dependent on recognizing and dealing with it, is going to take every chance he gets to detect more notable individuals in his area of operations (read: other PCs).

It's just not fun, as an at will ability that isn't really that noticeable when it is turned on and allows no saving throw.

EDIT: It's not that I think that detect evil has no place in PWs, I just think that the 3.5 version of it is unbalanced for PWs.

[Mayhem]

However, almost any PC encountered will just be *faintly* evil.

As will, theoretically, a good proportion of npcs.

Faint evil should be so common that it will be no particular use as a "find the evil murdered" tool. All it will do is give the detector grounds for suspicion, which, frankly, if he was slinging Detect

[Zelknolf]

Zelk says the risk of getting caught is part of the tension and flavor of being a bad guy, and I agree! But allowing any 1st level divinely inspired schmuck to instantly detect your alignment throws that whole simmering pot of flavor in the garbage. There's no risk that you'll be found out. There is only certainty. Because a PC that CAN detect evil, especially one whose powers are dependent on recognizing and dealing with it, is going to take every chance he gets to detect more notable individuals in his area of operations (read: other PCs).

Your defense hinges on one assumption: that the munchkins will abuse it, based on a very broken implementation created for EfU (I'm not dumb! Your whole grump about detect evil started specifically when one Alexis Springherald wasn't allowed to go adventure because she got detect evil'd.) where, funny enough, the munchkins still didn't abuse it, even though detect evil was genuinely without any outward signs of use, had no means to resist, and was instant; they tried to talk about it and would only push people out when they refused to talk. Because, go figure, slinging detect evil around willy-nilly in a PW really just informs you that a lot of people are evil, and playing there just informs you that only a few of them are actually dangerous.

[JaydeMoon]

INCORRECT! I point at you and say!

It does not hinge on the assumption that munchkins will 'abuse' it. It hinges on the assumption that those who legitimately have it will legitimately use it. Any ability that you get at level one that allows you to divine anything about/from another player character with no saves and no mistakes it overpowered, even if it takes 18 seconds to accomplish. Just my opinion.

My whole 'grump' about Detect Evil came up in the early days of ALFA during gripes from paladin playing players about their lack of a 'core ability'. The EfU incident is a good example of misuse, but is certainly not the source of my opinions on the matter.

Mayhem, I'm interested in hearing an explanation of why 'almost any PC' will con as 'faintly' evil, and especially how it ties to the chart that Dergon posted earlier in this thread.

[Zelknolf]

It does not hinge on the assumption that munchkins will 'abuse' it. It hinges on the assumption that those who legitimately have it will legitimately use it. Any ability that you get at level one that allows you to divine anything about/from another player character with no saves and no mistakes it overpowered, even if it takes 18 seconds to accomplish. Just my opinion.

No saves and no mistakes? This, sir, is a fine example of a poor understanding of the rules!

3rd Round
The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.

Power and location, not nature. As such, any spell containing an evil descriptor (namely: contagion, unholy blight, blasphemy, dispel good, protection from good, as well as any summon/calling spell that uses an evil creature) would produce an evil aura, without even getting into intentional misdirection. Hell, most of those are attacks, and would make victims look evil by being bitchslapped by evil.

Speaking of:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm

And!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm

And!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undete ... gnment.htm

All low-level spells, available to characters of 3rd level (or less - a 2nd level bard can cast undetectable alignment) with long durations, dirt cheap when put on magic items and able to be made into potions. (@ 300 gold a pop, or 100 for undetectable alignment -- when a full day of protection = 2 CLWs, I say quitcherbitchin)