Sug. If death player roll new PC 2 lvls lower than party?

[Nalo Jade]

I think Jayde was illustrating that the chance of CvC in our present situation is very very small.

Its a drastically different environment now.

Not taking that into account imo is like the ships captain refusing to admit that the water level has dropped and he should chart a new course to compensate for it...

Mayhem I would have doggedly agreed with you in the past.

Lets not kid ourselves, NWN1 ALFA is not a PW, its a series of campaign servers.

What is the benefit to keeping things the same, and making a player start at level 1 with no one to play with and no real statics to do...

Wouldn't it suck enough to lose a character and 2 levels?

instead of losing ... X levels and effectively be unable to play with your buddies in a "meaningful" way... regardless of how creative a DM can be to incorporate a level 1 into a game with higher levels, isn't it more fun to be at least in the ball park with them?

We are after fun right?

How is starting over as level 1 in our current environment helping to ensure fun and fairness?

[Brokenbone]

NWN1 the main "persistence" of our once-PW is that the servers tend to be operational 24/7.

Campaigns are the main source of enjoyment, at least from my observations. The diehards left for NWN1 tend to be grownups with responsibilities, who are happy to get a session in half a dozen times a month, if that. That is, guaranteed "good times" with people who are sure to log in for such times, including, normally, their patron DM(s).

People, or at least none I know, log in for forty hours a week to wander every nook and cranny of the backwoods of any servers, hunting spawns or trying to find a static they've missed in the last couple of years (only Shadowdale is likely to have statics it takes two hands or more to count, best I can tell). That may have been the case a few years ago when there was higher density and a chance of running into similarly minded players or a DM out for fun, but, not anymore.

Anyhow, since our current base only plays "a few hours a week", and in focused campaign sessions, something like a level 3 or 4 starting level doesn't frighten me, or of the few other NWN1 people I've asked on this point. What does someone starting a new, slightly durable PC, take away from (a) other players, (b) DMs, (c) the nebulous "spirit of ALFA"?

Answer is SFA (at least in my opinion).

Players get someone to game with, DMs get someone non-fragile to integrate into their campaigns, and NWN1 ALFA is simply "the people who play it", not the people who used to play it or have fond memories of some golden age.

Pilot it if there's a server whose DMs agree this makes sense, and see what happens. Success = continue, mixed results = adjust, fail = discontinue.

[Holy_Rage]

NWN1 the main "persistence" of our once-PW is that the servers tend to be operational 24/7.

Campaigns are the main source of enjoyment, at least from my observations. The diehards left for NWN1 tend to be grownups with responsibilities, who are happy to get a session in half a dozen times a month, if that. That is, guaranteed "good times" with people who are sure to log in for such times, including, normally, their patron DM(s).

People, or at least none I know, log in for forty hours a week to wander every nook and cranny of the backwoods of any servers, hunting spawns or trying to find a static they've missed in the last couple of years (only Shadowdale is likely to have statics it takes two hands or more to count, best I can tell). That may have been the case a few years ago when there was higher density and a chance of running into similarly minded players or a DM out for fun, but, not anymore.

Anyhow, since our current base only plays "a few hours a week", and in focused campaign sessions, something like a level 3 or 4 starting level doesn't frighten me, or of the few other NWN1 people I've asked on this point. What does someone starting a new, slightly durable PC, take away from (a) other players, (b) DMs, (c) the nebulous "spirit of ALFA"?

Answer is SFA (at least in my opinion).

Players get someone to game with, DMs get someone non-fragile to integrate into their campaigns, and NWN1 ALFA is simply "the people who play it", not the people who used to play it or have fond memories of some golden age.

Pilot it if there's a server whose DMs agree this makes sense, and see what happens. Success = continue, mixed results = adjust, fail = discontinue.

+1

[FanaticusIncendi]

NWN1 the main "persistence" of our once-PW is that the servers tend to be operational 24/7.

Campaigns are the main source of enjoyment, at least from my observations. The diehards left for NWN1 tend to be grownups with responsibilities, who are happy to get a session in half a dozen times a month, if that. That is, guaranteed "good times" with people who are sure to log in for such times, including, normally, their patron DM(s).

People, or at least none I know, log in for forty hours a week to wander every nook and cranny of the backwoods of any servers, hunting spawns or trying to find a static they've missed in the last couple of years (only Shadowdale is likely to have statics it takes two hands or more to count, best I can tell). That may have been the case a few years ago when there was higher density and a chance of running into similarly minded players or a DM out for fun, but, not anymore.

Anyhow, since our current base only plays "a few hours a week", and in focused campaign sessions, something like a level 3 or 4 starting level doesn't frighten me, or of the few other NWN1 people I've asked on this point. What does someone starting a new, slightly durable PC, take away from (a) other players, (b) DMs, (c) the nebulous "spirit of ALFA"?

Answer is SFA (at least in my opinion).

Players get someone to game with, DMs get someone non-fragile to integrate into their campaigns, and NWN1 ALFA is simply "the people who play it", not the people who used to play it or have fond memories of some golden age.

Pilot it if there's a server whose DMs agree this makes sense, and see what happens. Success = continue, mixed results = adjust, fail = discontinue.

+1

[JaydeMoon]

Much more eloquently stated than my facetious jab

+1

[Nalo Jade]

NWN1 the main "persistence" of our once-PW is that the servers tend to be operational 24/7.

Campaigns are the main source of enjoyment, at least from my observations. The diehards left for NWN1 tend to be grownups with responsibilities, who are happy to get a session in half a dozen times a month, if that. That is, guaranteed "good times" with people who are sure to log in for such times, including, normally, their patron DM(s).

People, or at least none I know, log in for forty hours a week to wander every nook and cranny of the backwoods of any servers, hunting spawns or trying to find a static they've missed in the last couple of years (only Shadowdale is likely to have statics it takes two hands or more to count, best I can tell). That may have been the case a few years ago when there was higher density and a chance of running into similarly minded players or a DM out for fun, but, not anymore.

Anyhow, since our current base only plays "a few hours a week", and in focused campaign sessions, something like a level 3 or 4 starting level doesn't frighten me, or of the few other NWN1 people I've asked on this point. What does someone starting a new, slightly durable PC, take away from (a) other players, (b) DMs, (c) the nebulous "spirit of ALFA"?

Answer is SFA (at least in my opinion).

Players get someone to game with, DMs get someone non-fragile to integrate into their campaigns, and NWN1 ALFA is simply "the people who play it", not the people who used to play it or have fond memories of some golden age.

Pilot it if there's a server whose DMs agree this makes sense, and see what happens. Success = continue, mixed results = adjust, fail = discontinue.

+1 ... because everyone else is doing it oh and I agree 100%

[Zelknolf]

Anyhow, since our current base only plays "a few hours a week", and in focused campaign sessions, something like a level 3 or 4 starting level doesn't frighten me, or of the few other NWN1 people I've asked on this point. What does someone starting a new, slightly durable PC, take away from (a) other players, (b) DMs, (c) the nebulous "spirit of ALFA"?

Answer is SFA (at least in my opinion).

Players get someone to game with, DMs get someone non-fragile to integrate into their campaigns, and NWN1 ALFA is simply "the people who play it", not the people who used to play it or have fond memories of some golden age.

Pilot it if there's a server whose DMs agree this makes sense, and see what happens. Success = continue, mixed results = adjust, fail = discontinue.

Anti-blah!


Sorry, I think Nick D's idea is better. His encourages more player activity, give new PCs people to play with, and answers the concerns of fairness this one brings up.

[Brokenbone]

I don't dislike NickD's idea, the idea of grooming a whole stable of sub 3rd/4th level PCs is dandy, if you have the time for it. Some people do, some don't. Maybe pilot some blend of the still-nebulous, brainstormed only systems being proposed above. Again, what, exactly, is it going to hurt? Lose members? Alienate DMs? Tarnish memories of the golden age? Who cares?

I'm maybe only a bit uneasy (not greatly so) with the idea of having multiple Live characters. Muling and other forms of metagaming are possible in that environment, as compared to having to die/retire before starting your new "up to level 3/4?" PC.

Still, NWN1 ALFA has virtually no anonymity to it anymore, there's no such thing as a "stranger" breezing through and doing weird things like acquiring tradebars that someone purposely leaves in a barrel for them, or picking over the remains of fifty orcs that your high level warrior breezed through and logged out in order for the "alternate" to come loot. Those of us who are still around, are also in cases technically alert enough to know that you WILL get caught for those kinds of shenanigans, lynched, tarred & feathered, etc.

...

I'm not 100% sure I understand the "concerns of fairness" problem with an "option to start at 3rd", as it's mentioned just above, but not spelled out. Is it the "I walked uphill forty miles in the snow to school, so darn tooting you have to as well" type of thing, or something else? While I'm interested to know, I sort of despair the discussion's pointless, no matter how many "+1's" etc. get stated for any alternate way of getting some renewed vitality for NWN1, ALFA usually proves to be pretty set in its ways.

[Nalo Jade]

Crewman1: "Cap'n the waters have receded a good bit, may be we should change the course afore we run her aground"

Crewman2: "Aye Cap'n, the old course do be looking too shallow"

Crewman3: "I think I can see the rocky riverbed coming up ahead!"

Crewman 4: "Nay you sots, we have gone this way for many years, Cap'n we should stay the course who knows what dangers lurk in those waters that merely "appear" safer...there be monsters according to the charts we have been using for years. Do you not trust the map makers of the golden age when thousands of ships used to sail these lines? There is nothing to fear."

Steerage mate: "Whats your orders Cap'n?"

[Zelknolf]

I don't dislike NickD's idea, the idea of grooming a whole stable of sub 3rd/4th level PCs is dandy, if you have the time for it. Some people do, some don't. Maybe pilot some blend of the still-nebulous, brainstormed only systems being proposed above. Again, what, exactly, is it going to hurt? Lose members? Alienate DMs? Tarnish memories of the golden age? Who cares?

I'm maybe only a bit uneasy (not greatly so) with the idea of having multiple Live characters. Muling and other forms of metagaming are possible in that environment, as compared to having to die/retire before starting your new "up to level 3/4?" PC.

Still, NWN1 ALFA has virtually no anonymity to it anymore, there's no such thing as a "stranger" breezing through and doing weird things like acquiring tradebars that someone purposely leaves in a barrel for them, or picking over the remains of fifty orcs that your high level warrior breezed through and logged out in order for the "alternate" to come loot. Those of us who are still around, are also in cases technically alert enough to know that you WILL get caught for those kinds of shenanigans, lynched, tarred & feathered, etc.

...

I'm not 100% sure I understand the "concerns of fairness" problem with an "option to start at 3rd", as it's mentioned just above, but not spelled out. Is it the "I walked uphill forty miles in the snow to school, so darn tooting you have to as well" type of thing, or something else? While I'm interested to know, I sort of despair the discussion's pointless, no matter how many "+1's" etc. get stated for any alternate way of getting some renewed vitality for NWN1, ALFA usually proves to be pretty set in its ways.

So alter the rules to try to spur activity by tailoring them to people who can't play? No offense, and nothin' against the whole "OOC obligations" thingy, but the suggestion is contrary to its goals there.

I would respond to your comments about muling in that our logs still catch that stuff; we can ban cheaters. I would further respond to metagaming comments in that I've gained vastly more meta information by being on the forums than by being in game, vastly more meta information by being on chat than by being in forums, and even more meta information by being a DM. I was under the impression that it was only bad if you used it.

The lack of fairness thing is because we're giving something free to some people and not to others. Roll a new toon, get 6000 free XP; keep an old toon... and watch other people get 6000 free XP (that you didn't). I don't think that, alone, should defeat a system of course. I do think it's a point against it, though, and would/should work against it when compared to suggestions that don't have that problem.

[danielmn]

So? Just give all the old toons 6,000 xp too.

[Zelknolf]

So? Just give all the old toons 6,000 xp too.

I grumble about consistency issues, but I think that they would be a little less prohibative than a one-time burst of unfairness, in that this one is prohibative because it makes things a little wonky IC in the transition while the other would tend to foster OOC hostile undertones. As with the previous suggestion, it's not murder for a plan, but it does make the plan without the problem seem more appealing (at least to me), especially when that other plan includes methods that would allow the old guard to play with noobs with characters of comparable power and would facilitate more frequent play with a larger diversity of players without providing much incentive to using an "alt" to avoid IC conflict (y'know, so using an alt would be about as appealing as just not playing or playing in another world... which people do anyway).


Of course, I also think that any of these would be an improvement over doing nothing. Clearly, there's a problem, and doing nothing about it will make there continue to be a problem. Doing something at least gives us a shot at fixing it.

[Karvon]

I'm new to ALFA and not particularly familiar with all the ends and outs of how things work here. Thus, I will not attempt to argue for or against any of the standing practices here.

The following are what I've developed based on my 30 odd years experience in running pnp games and 3 years of doing the same via NWN1 on my own private PW.

New PCs:

New PW PCs start at lvl 2 and get appropriate gold. That allows for a bit more variety in initial PC creation and also gives folks potentially enough HPs to survive the random full damage or crit hit, that kills off many lvl 1.

PCs joining an existing DM run campaign start at 4 lvls below the highest lvl in the party (with the minimum be lvl 2) and are given appropriate gold to equip based on their starting level.


Death and Dying:

In PW play, permadeath is the norm on my server, so if you die you're dead, end of story.

In DM guided sessions, however, I use guarded permadeath. PCs who die during combats are subject to the permadeath scripts but can be revived by fellow party members who utilize any combo of healing potions, spells, kits in conjunction with healing skill rolls. The DC increases with passage of time in minutes and the amount of damage sustained that killed the PC, and decreases with the power of the spell/potion/kit used in the attempt to revive them. (semi) intelligent hostile NPCs may also decide to attempt such revival attempts for their own ends.

A successful skill check give the PC a roll vs their (natural con -2) with bonus(es) for feats which enhance fortitude. Roll less than that, you are revived; roll more than that you are dead. 1 is always a success and a 20 is always a failure. A player so revived has the HP set to 1.

I've been satisfied with the results of this system in my own campaign play. If the party responds promptly with healing intervention, then there's a fairly likely chance of saving fallen characters. This also encourages parties to stick together more, since those who wander off on their own are much less likely to receive timely medical treatment and die.

My two cents, your mileage may vary

Karvon

[Mulu]

I just make raise dead scrolls available for purchase. Seems to work fine and functions as a huge wealth sink. But this is in traditional campaign play, not on a PW of course.

Maybe the easy thing would be to just break the PW moniker and call the NWN1 game ALFA CAMPAIGNS. Because it seems like the rules that were generated years ago for making a fair PW game no longer apply well to the current game.

I would have to say my favorite "PW" experience was the old Dragonspire run by Hahnsoo. I put PW in quotes because the server was only up twice a week, 6 hours at a time, so really an Intermittent World. While it was up, it had DM saturation, meaning that there were plenty of DM's on to give all the players at least some attention. That meant individual, group, and world plots were advanced every session. Given that the membership of ALFA NWN1 now roughly equals the old DS membership, maybe an Intermittent World approach would serve the population better? By limiting server time you force player density, and essentially guarantee DM coverage for those times.