Crafting

[Mayhem]

I sometimes wonder why we don't use the preexisting system that NWN2 came out with. What is so fundamentally wrong with that one?

Zero creation time, massive profits, and no masterworking.

[Brokenbone]

So non-casters creating magic weapons is what the "E1" stuff means... a term I've never seen in Standards documents, but at least it's cleared up.

Pretty far off D&D. "Collect a bunch of ore, use a recipe, and get a magic weapon, then sell to other players" is similar to a lot of cheapie browsergame MMORPGs, I do not know how well or poorly it compares to the better, more successful MMORPGs. It doesn't trace its lineage back to D20 systems, or prior editions of Dungeons & Dragons at all though.


EDIT: Just wanted to make sure it's clear, I do think crafting of some sort would be nice, and as per the "passed and never implemented" Admin vote thingy of a few years back I posted, I think we have the bones of an agreeable D&D based system there. Beta it, and if successful, automate the parts of it which are capable of being automated (it might still need a huge pallette, but that'll come over time).

[Rick7475]

So non-casters creating magic weapons is what the "E1" stuff means... a term I've never seen in Standards documents, but at least it's cleared up.

Pretty far off D&D. "Collect a bunch of ore, use a recipe, and get a magic weapon, then sell to other players" is similar to a lot of cheapie browsergame MMORPGs, I do not know how well or poorly it compares to the better, more successful MMORPGs. It doesn't trace its lineage back to D20 systems, or prior editions of Dungeons & Dragons at all though.


EDIT: Just wanted to make sure it's clear, I do think crafting of some sort would be nice, and as per the "passed and never implemented" Admin vote thingy of a few years back I posted, I think we have the bones of an agreeable D&D based system there. Beta it, and if successful, automate the parts of it which are capable of being automated (it might still need a huge pallette, but that'll come over time).

Another confirmation the standards documents never worked.

You haven't even seen the recipe documents, nor have you played some MMORGs's I've played where crafting a magic weapon requires imbued items from a wizard. This kind of ore can either be purchased from a wizard shop, or services rendered via a wizard for a fee (probably through a wizard's workbench rentable from a wizard tower) so that wizards can make $$$. Or the item itself given to the wizard, I haven't decided which system is easier to script, and it all depends if I can automate it.

As for the Admin, they have never agreed on a realistic scriptable crafting system or ever agreed on a COTS system. As Lancaster said, the Waterfall engineering method will not work, I'll need to prototype something.

But to clarify, I will try and follow the DMG guide where it is possible with the toolset, but because Obsidian often deviates, I cannot reprogram the toolset. Nor am I going to spend a huge amount of time trying to make one as close to the DMG as I can. I will try my best, and use the KISS rule. After all, I am offering to try and do something no one in ALFA has ever survived membership in doing.

[Burt]

I would prefer to see crafting along D&D lines, (e.g. the crafting feats).

[Zelknolf]

or prior editions of Dungeons & Dragons at all though.

Take a peek in the 2nd edition DMG/PHB.


Still no good for ALFA NWN2, 'cuz we're on 3.5, but there was a time when magic items were made in D&D by prancing through the woods, collecting exotic ingredients, and performing some nondescript ritual on them (plus a few creepy days when the wizard doing it had to sleep with the item and a tiny risk of permanent constitution loss). I don't have my 2nd edition revised books on me, but if memory serves, the Enchant an Item spell went away in 2e revised to make way for a pure woods-frolicking, regeants-gathering, magic crafting system.

[JaydeMoon]

So non-casters creating magic weapons is what the "E1" stuff means... a term I've never seen in Standards documents, but at least it's cleared up.

Another confirmation the standards documents never worked.

How is the absence of the term 'E1', which doesn't exist in D&D 3d or 3.5, which our community uses as a basis for its ruleset, 'another confirmation' that our standards documentation do not work?

Hrm, the standards documentation also do not list the special properties of a suit of armor made from the large plates on Godzilla's back, but I think we'd all agree that's pretty irrelevant as well.

I don't think that the community in general is going to be happy with a crafting system that is too far off of what D&D already allows for. Your BEST bet would be to prototype something along the lines of what is in the PHB.

I don't know why this would be so hard (if you have uber scripting abilities, I don't so I guess it would be hard for me), given that in NWN2 you're supposed to be able to script anything (I mean, that's what's so great about it, besides the claymation toons, right?).

1. You collect or purchase the raw materials, which equal 1/3 of the base cost of the item you are crafting (mundane).

2. You find a workbench (smithy, lab, workshop, whatev)

3. You are allowed to make one roll per game day towards creating your item. The system asks for you to choose to take 10 or roll.

4.

1. Successful roll : You are X% towards completing the item (as per D&D 3.5 Craft rules). If X% => 100%, you gain the item in your inventory.
   Fail by 4 or less : No progress
   Fail by 5 or more : No progress and you lose 1/2 of the remaining materials you were working with and must reacquire them.

Would that be so much harder than developing some custom craft scripts that don't follow D&D 3.5 rules? I mean, if you are going to build a system, why not build the right system? Maybe it is? Tell us what the issues are with that system.

But I bet if you had the right system in, the chances of it being included are a LOT better than if you just make up some MMO type crafting system that only makes sense to the maker.

[Demson]

Also, making it work for NWN1 would be a nice touch indeed.

[Zelknolf]

But I bet if you had the right system in, the chances of it being included are a LOT better than if you just make up some MMO type crafting system that only makes sense to the maker.

Wait... so you're saying that flaming swords +1 aren't made from fire beetle bellies, geodes, and iron ingots? And not made on an anvil with no source of fire or water in the room?


Srsly though, +1 to the "If you're going to do it, do it right" point. I'll admit there's some cheese to putting time compression to work on a process that's really more macro-scale, but c'mon. We're not talking a random goon cranking out 20 longswords an OOC day and spam-selling them to a static merchant. We're talking a longsword per OOC day or two for someone who sinks massive skill points and feats into the appropriate craft (for about 5 gold of profit, provided there're no checks flubbed anywhere in the creation process, and no checked flubbed when negotiating with a merchant). Even with the many comlpaints of spawns not dropping loot, you could make more than that by gathering your friends up and beating the asses off of some goblins (who, ICly, prolly aught to be dropping soiled undergarments, rusty clubs [no clue how they managed to get a hunk of wood rusty. Goblin enginuity for you], and a fistful of mangled copper coins... but drop gold), and in much less time.

[Brokenbone]

FYI to Demson, we already have DM-aided crafting in NWN1 for what it's worth, have for a good long while without Admin speaking out against it. I've seen PC smiths for sure in Sembia and Shadowdale, as well as "dummy feats" related regimes for the "Craft Wondrous", "Craft Magic Arms & Armor" etc. type feats.

I've personally enjoyed the "Craft Wondrous" stuff in Sembia, which has normally consisted of sitting around an appropriate workspace away from campaigny stuff, and submitting IC fiction and appropriate item erfs for the DMs to consider and act upon at their leisure. It's just one method of doing DM-aided crafting, maybe other DMs may prefer logs with several hours variation on *inscribes runic formula* / *gets high on incense* / *begs the favour of his god* / *dribbles exotic oils on the doohickey* etc. There's presumably other methods, I've observed PC smiths spend an awful lot of time in forge type environments, I assume they demonstrated RP satisfactory to their patron DMs (including rolls, I guess, for skill-based as opposed to feat-based crafting) to get the appropriate outputs.

Appropriate has often included trying to follow the sorta-passed, not quite clearly implemented system deep in the Admin forum... so that lowbie crafters aren't creating +5 items out the gate. I thought I linked it elsewhere, but I'll quote the thing here. I do not know who "gets credit" for it, probably the product of the CTC team, whoever was on it, a little over two years ago. I know it's LONG, but it garnered 3-1 support, though there's no end of argument over whether it was an HDM thing to vote on, all Admin to vote on, or DMA prerogative to implement. Current Admin group (with or without HDMs) could certainly look at it again, as we never seemed to refine anything beyond the system / process defined there.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=29630

DM Driven Crafting Proposal

Post-HDM Review

Mission Statement: To present an enjoyable and viable crafting standard for ALFA that is fair and balanced across all servers. This proposal assumes DM item creation but it could be used to one day create an automated or semiautomated system. Such as system would be specified in future proposals that would also be passed through the HDMs.

General Crafting:
All crafting requires RP when the item is begun and finished. The time count down for an item does not begin till this first RP session, ie no starting an item and RPing the starting the item a week down the road. PCs must RP crafting at least once a week with their DM during the process or the crafting is considered halted (situational exceptions due to real life will be allowed).

Crafting will require a PC to have all the appropriate feats, when they are added to ALFA, see Appendix A. Remakes should be allowed for the first 3 months, if past RP dictates so.

While crafting a players ability to travel and to gain xp will be limited. A player will be expected to stay on the server they are crafting on. Gaining any non-RP based xp while working on a magical item or performing any strenuous activity, fighting or casting for example, must be reported to the crafting DM and that DM may rule on the consquences. The minimum consquence being adding an additional day to the crafting time to the maximum being complete loss of the item. Mudane items, are not at risk of being lost but will also require additional days if the player is involved in gaining non-RP xp or is performing any strenuous activity.

DMs may rule that crafting an item may take up to 50% longer or shorter amounts of time by the situation or plot involvement.


DMs have final ruling on what components are needed for an item's creation but it is suggested they use the predesigned tables to determine the CR for the quest, see Appendix B. The value of any components quested for are to be removed from the crafting cost.

All PC made items will be marked plot, and have a disclaimer in their description reading “Crafted by [PC's Name].” They may be traded only to other players, with all rules against “twinking” applied to abuse.


DMs are encouraged to be reasonable when deciding factors for crafting.


Mundane Crafting:
PCs are allowed and encouraged to "Take 10" on all crafting checks if they are not being rushed or distracted.

Items are completed at a rate of Skill CheckxDCx3 per day. Checks are made once every real life day, by the player. They can be made pre-emptively OR after the fact where needed. When the total amount reaches 10 times the Market Price of the item in gold, it is completed. If a PC fails the DC by 4 or less no progress is made, failing by 5 or more looses half the materials for that item which have to be replaced before continuing. A PC may raise the DC by 10 to work at a hurried pace (accelerating the craft time), masterwork items cannot be made this way as they require delicate care and concentration.


Creation of mundane tools that grant skill bonuses will be possible to create with a DC of 20 for +1 and 25 for +2. This items will be priced at an equal to their magical counterparts. Nothing higher than a +2 skill bonus to a single skill from mundane items will be allowed, with no more than a +3 total bonus on the item. Mundane items with a bonus to skills will be marked as mundane in their description.


To begin crafting PC must have 1/3 of the items market value in its base components. Set components will be given for mundane crafting, see Appendix C.

The following is an example for the crafting of a fullplate using 500 gold of base material and taking 10 on the skill checks:
lvl1(+12 to skill rolls): 13 real life days
lvl6(+18 to skill rolls): 7 real life days
lvl10(+23 to skill rolls): 6 real life days

Note the above assumes the PC is designed entirely towards crafting with full ranks, skill focus, and appropriate items to boost skills.


Magical Crafting:
Magical items take 1 RL day per 1,000 gold to create rounded up to the nearest day, with the exception of potions which take only a single day to brew.


Required Components:
3+ Ability items
3+ Shield/Amour Bonus to AC items

2+ Deflection/Natural/Dodge AC Bonus items
3+ Save Bonus
5+ Skill Bonus
Spell Resistance

Damage Resistance greater than 3/[specific requirement]
Spell Casting items of lvl 3+
3+ Weapon Bonus

Any item with more than 3 abilities, excepting those which add to the 'effective plus'
Any item with a combined value of over 7,500gp.

These components can be quested for while crafting and must be provided before the item is completed or the item will be put on hold till the components are retrieved, the PC is still considered to be crafting while awaiting the final component/s.

All requirements needed for an item's creation listed in the DMG need to be met by the crafter, except in the case of weapon and armour enchantments that affect the “effective plus” of the item. Magical Arms and Armour have a base level requirement of 3x the plus. This includes, and is not limited to, ability to cast required spells, feats, skills and xp penalties. If a spell does not exist in ALFA a replacement may be decided upon by the DM in question, or a RP token of having that spell may be gained. Also included are required quest components that should not exceed 50% of the crafting cost which may be aquired after crafting has begun.

A simple listing for level requirements:


Lvl 1 can craft lvl 0 & 1 scrolls, +1 skill items
Lvl 2 can craft +2 skill items
Lvl 3 can craft lvl 2 scrolls/potions/wondrous items, +3 skill items
Lvl 4 can craft +4 skill items, +1 Enhancement weapons/armor and +1 ability items
Lvl 5 can craft lvl 3 scrolls/potions/wands/wondrous items, +5 skill items, +1 Enhancement weapons/armor items
Lvl 6 can craft +6 skill items
Lvl 7 can craft lvl 4 scrolls/wands/wonderous items, +7 skill items
Lvl 8 can craft +8 skill items, +2 Enhancement weapons/armor and ability items
Lvl 9 can craft lvl 5 scrolls/rods/wondrous items, +9 skill items
Lvl 10 can craft +10 skill items

Lvl 11 can craft lvl 6 scrolls/rods/wondrous items

Lvl 12 can craft +3 Enhancement weapons/armor and ability items, lvl 6 & below staffs/rings

Lvl 13 can craft lvl 7 scrolls/rods/staffs/rings/wondrous items

Lvl 15 can craft lvl 8 scrolls/rods/staffs/rings/wondrous items

Lvl 16 can craft +4 Enhancement weapons/armor and ability items

Lvl 17 can craft lvl 9 scrolls/rods/staffs/rings/wondrous items

Lvl 20 can craft +5 Enhancement weapons/armor and ability items


Appendix A:
Skills/Feats/Base Items for crafted items.


Alchemy
Base Items: Bottle/Liquids
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Gnomes should get +2 to alchemy as a racial bonus.
Examples: Acid, alchemist's fire, smokestick, tindertwig, antitoxin, sunrod, taglefoot bag, thunderstone

Armorsmithing
Base Items: Ore
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Dwarves get +2 on stone or metal related checks. (Most likely should be done through DMs.)
Examples: Any non-magical armor or shield

Baking/Cooking
Base Items: Flour/Food Stuff
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation.
Examples: Pies, bread, other edibles

Bowmaking
Base Items: Wood
Notes:
Examples: Any non-magical longbow, shortbow, composite or composite with high strength ratig, arrows

Carpentry
Base Items: Wood
Notes:
Exampes: Beams, furniture, chests, mugs, toys

Commonsmithing
Base Items: Ore
Notes: Lockpicks are not covered. A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Dwarves get +2 on stone or metal related checks. (Most likely should be done through DMs.)
Examples: Spoons, pots, bells, tools

Locksmithing
Base Items: Ore
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Dwarves get +2 on stone or metal related checks. (Most likely should be done through DMs.)
Examples: Locks and lockpicks

Masonry
Base Items: Stone
Notes: Dwarves get +2 on stone or metal related checks. (Most likely should be done through DMs.)
Examples: Ceramics, plates, pots, vases, sculptures, hewn stone

Trapmaking
Base Items: Wood/Ore/Stone
Notes: Dwarves get +2 on stone or metal related checks. (Most likely should be done through DMs.)
Examples: Any non-magical trap

Tailoring
Base Items: Cloth
Examples: Clothing

Weaponsmithing
Base Items: Ore
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Dwarves get +2 on stone or metal related checks. (Most likely should be done through DMs.)
Examples: Any non-magical melee or thrown weapon


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Enchanted Armor
Feats: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Base Item: Masterwork Armor
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Character caster level must be 3x the effective plus of the armour. An item must be at least +1 enhancement to have a special ability.

Enchanted Shield
Feats: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Base Item: Masterwork Shield
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Character caster level must be 3x the effective plus of the shield. A shield must have a +1 enchantment to have any special abilities.

Enchanted Weapon
Feats: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Base Item: Masterwork Weapon
Notes: A heat source and appropriate tools are needed during creation. Character caster level must be 3x the effective plus of the weapon. A weapon must have a +1 enchantment to have any special abilities. The caster may decide if the weapon will glow or not for no extra cost. A Double-headed weapon is treated as creating 2 weapons for determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities.

Enchanted Ring
Feats: Forge Ring
Base Item: Ring
Notes: A heat source is needed during creation. Rarely have charges.

Enchanted Rod
Feats: Craft Rod
Bast Item: Rod(or Masterwork weapon cost if usable as weapon)
Notes: Most Rod abilities seem like they would be very hard to replicate since rods do not contain spells but a list of abilities. No charges.

Enchanted Staff
Feats: Craft Staff
Bast Item: Masterwork Quarterstaff
Notes: Can hold multiple spells of any level. Holds 50 charges when created.

Enchanted Wand
Feats: Craft Wand
Base Item: Wand
Notes: Can hold one spell up to 4th level, holds 50 charges when created.

Potion
Feats: Brew Potion
Base Item: Bottle
Notes: A lab bench and a heat source are needed during creation. Can be used only once contains a spell of up to 3rd level.

Scroll

Feats: Scribe Scroll
Base Item: Specialty paper and inks
Notes:

Wondrous
Feats: Craft Wondrous Item
Base Item: Item
Notes:

Appendix B:

Table of CRs for Quested Componets
<BROKENBONE NOTE: I CAN'T FORMAT THIS CHART TOO WELL, SEE SOURCE LINK>
Code:
| Modifier
Magic | +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Str | 10 13 16
Dex | 10 13 16
Con | 10 13 16
Wis | 10 13 16
Int | 10 13 16
Chr | 10 13 16
|
Armor | 10 13 16
|
Weapon| 10 13 16
|
DodgeA| 10 13 16 18
|
Save | 11 13 15
|
Skill | -- -- -- 6 7 8 9 10 11
|
Spell | 6 8 10 12 14 16 18
|
SR10 | 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17


Components will have an identifier scheme in their description of:

Component [ability] [Modifier]
Examples: Component Stength +3, Component SR 10 +3

It should also list the DM that gave it out if applicable.


Availability of components:

If an item can be bought from a static merchant it should usually be possible to buy the components in the same area. Questing for components may require crossing between servers or even across all of ALFA. The current availability of the component in question is determined by the DM running the process. These could be supplied in a hak pack for all servers for DM ease.

Note that were the above system "officially okay" by the July 2008 Admin group, parts of it could be automated, like for the least fancy outputs, things you'd expect to find in the palette like mundane and masterwork arms and armor, most potions and scrolls, maybe wands as well. Devices with many combinations of abilities though, well, player creativity comes into that, and you might not find something ready made in the palette to handle such.

I at least thought it was well thought out, and definitely had no hand in its creation nor any other pride of authorship. It seems more D&D though than:

1. Barbarian buys RECIPE.
2. Barbarian buys LICENCE.
3. Barbarian buys/collects INGREDIENTS.
4. Barbarian puts in MACHINE/SPECIAL ROOM/FUNNY CHEST.
5. Barbarian rolls d20.
6. A. d20 FAIL: return to steps 3-5
6. B. d20 PASS: Barbarian gets NEW MAGIC AXE +1 (or better?).

Note the above simplification is NOT meant to be ridicule what I think is a sincere attempt to get scripted crafting going. It may work in MMORPGs (I've played only some crappy German (?) browsergame things that work like that, as opposed to WoW which might be more finessed), but it doesn't trace back to D&D, which has skills, crossclass skills, feats, feats with class / level prerequisites, etc. That's the stuff that a fair percent of the membership traces its roots back to, and I guess is being put under the banner above of "if you're going to do it, do it right" (also as per Wham! / George Michael, "I'm Your Man", 1985).

Again, we've done it with DMs in NWN1, maybe we can do it both with and without DMs in NWN2. Super complex high value stuff needing the DMs, bread and butter stuff like scrolls, potions, simple description arms/armor, do without a DM.

[Rick7475]

First of all, I intended the crafting system to relieve DM's of these mundane duties so that they could focus on imaginitive plots and avoid the kind of burnout I have seen from other DM's who have to deal with crafting.

Second, no crafting feats exist in the NWN2 character creation guide. I am sure we can include them if we bug the tech guys, but we have already seen how a skill bug blew away hours and hours of work on TSM so I am sure many builders are going to cringe. (Feats such as Skill Focus increase the crafting skills).


Quote:

1. Barbarian buys RECIPE.
2. Barbarian buys LICENCE.
3. Barbarian buys/collects INGREDIENTS.
4. Barbarian puts in MACHINE/SPECIAL ROOM/FUNNY CHEST.
5. Barbarian rolls d20.
6. A. d20 FAIL: return to steps 3-5
6. B. d20 PASS: Barbarian gets NEW MAGIC AXE +1 (or better?).



1. Barbarian has to be level 3 and have 5 skill points in a crafting skill This can be increased to 10 or whatever tweaking needs to be done).
2. Barbarian passes license test in crafting skill (skill check with a DC)
3. Barbarian buys license
4. Barbarian buys recipe
5. Barbarian must acquire all the componets of the recipe, including anything that must be spellcast from a wizard
6. Barbarian rents equipment
7. Barbarian tries to create on a DC check, and that check is going to be very high on magical items (like 30+) D20+skill+ability bonus+racial modifier.
8. Barbarian passes check, creates item
9. Barbarian fails check, loses all components and money spent on them

As I said, I wanted to keep crafting simple. In a game where there is no copper, silver, or platinum pieces, we are not abiding by the DMG. My proposal is a combination of DMG and best fit.

[JaydeMoon]

7. Barbarian tries to create on a DC check, and that check is going to be very high on magical items (like 30+) D20+skill+ability bonus+racial modifier.

Are you going to arbitrarily create DCs, then? Where are these numbers going to come from?

Might I ask why you seem so set against scripting it as per D&D 3.5 rules? Is there something wrong with them?

[EDIT: Self moderated, sounded snarky the way I originally worded it, definitely not meant to be snarky. Sorry, Rick ]

[Vaelahr]

*dribbles exotic oils on the doohickey*

Now that's my kind of crafting!

[Rick7475]

7. Barbarian tries to create on a DC check, and that check is going to be very high on magical items (like 30+) D20+skill+ability bonus+racial modifier.

Are you going to arbitrarily create DCs, then? Where are these numbers going to come from?

Might I ask why you seem so set against scripting it as per D&D 3.5 rules? Is there something wrong with them?

[EDIT: Self moderated, sounded snarky the way I originally worded it, definitely not meant to be snarky. Sorry, Rick ]

Yes, I am going to make some numbers up, tweak them, and try and make it realistic.

[JaydeMoon]

About halfway down, there is a table with some numbers here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

In fact, the entire basic D&D system of crafting is there. I feel I have to persist with my main question: Why can't we use one that's already been made up and is (relatively) balance tested?

Again, I think that getting a crafting system accepted is going to be a lot easier if it's based on D&D and not the Arbitrary 'Rick' System. While I have faith that the way you would make it would make sense, we've seen time and time again the attitude with which contributions outside of the realm of D&D and FRCS can be received in this community.

Again, unless there is some deal breaking reason not to, I would highly recommend incorporating the D&D 3.5 Crafting rules as completely as possible into any crafting system made for ALFA.

[Zelknolf]

Yes, I am going to make some numbers up, tweak them, and try and make it realistic.

So, according to the SRD...
Dagger = DC 12
Longsword = DC 15
Bastard Sword = DC 18
Masterwork Sword = DC 20

But you want to add...
A Character Who is Totally Incompitent as a Spellcaster Creating an Enchanted Item with a Moderate Transmutation Aura = DC ???

c'mon. If you're going to have them make it, at least make it feasibly IC. I understand the "there're no item creation feats in the APM or our game engine right now" angle, but creating magic items is definately the domain of spellcasters. A barbarian can't whack a piece of steel until it looks like a sword (even if he paid for a lisence to whack a piece of steel) and end up with something that can bypass dragon DR.