The Warlock Challenge! Fabulous Prizes to be Won!

[ayergo]

So i've read a lot of fuss about warlocks and this supposed almighty "Flee The Scene" but i've never seen it in action to any extent thats worthwhile.

I therefore issue this challenge:

The first person who can successfully conquer my goblin dungeon of old keep using only a solo warlock will get their choice of a new 4th edition DnD book or some of my relic 2'd edition adventure modules.

You get one shot per person, only basic starting equipment provided as well as xp to level 6. You must select flee the scene and incorporate it heavily into your strategy and i must be present for the entire adventure.

I know a level 6 fighter can do it. I want to see this in action.

Yes i know that folks are worried about multiclassing folks, but if you go through 6 levels of a class in ALFA to get an ability, more power to you. A lot of folks never reach anywhere beyond 6 anyway.

[AcadiusLost]

For what it's worth, the tactic that's particularly gamebreaking is somewhat reliant on wide open spaces with good visual range, so a dungeon-type challenge is not really a test of it.

As best I understand it, we're talking about firing off a super-long-range damage attack (longer than bow range), than turning invisible and moving to get the creature AI to give up looking for you. Then, blast again, invis again. change position, blast again, invis again.

Could a shadowdancer with HiPS do the same? Sure, for the x/day. Same with a wizard or sorc with Invisibility (again, limited by how many uses they might have left). Or, any character with a ranged weapon and a backpack full of invisibility potions. But, at 300 gp a hit (assuming you're using cheap ammunition), it's not going to be all that useful in the long run. We're not talking about a quick tactical strike here or there, the concern is about using this combo 40 or more times in the same session vs. the same high-CR creature to whittle it down to nothing, which is beyond absurd from an IC perspective. Totally within the capacities of a warlock in-game though, and extremely lucrative in terms of XP award, since it's based on a comparison of the killed creature's CR vs your level. If a DM were managing a bugbear being so harried, it might well retreat into a nearby cave to limit the attacker's options. Or, head back to camp where there are others around to fan out and wait with bows ready for the klingon warbir.. em warlock to uncloak. The AI isn't going to do any of that by default though, and it's not the sort of thing that's easy to log.

It's a highly situational tactic, but so long as high-CR opponents can spawn in large exteriors, it's one that could be used by players- and could be argued as IC, due to the "limitless" power usage innate to the class. We can (and probably will) end up with some kind of rule like "you can't use spear/walk unseen more than 3x per combat" or something, but it's not something we can enforce from a technical standpoint, really.

It's fine to test warlocks, but proving a dungeon "unbeatable" by a solo warlock build is meaningless in the context of the "problem case" that's under discussion.

[Magonushi]

AL isn't abusing the warlock like that, well ... let me offer a similar scenario.

Druids right now can have their doom boars do most of the fighting in a fight. The boar may get wounded but chances are it should survive low CR encounters.

All the druid has to do is unsummon and then resummon the boar and *ding* it's back at full health.

Abusing class features is nothing new, but comparatively the warlock can start abusing his class at level 6. The druid can start her PGing tenancies at level 1. IMO the druid deserves to be beaten with the ban bat more than the lock.

Ultimately, penalizing everyone for the detrimental habits of the few is an unsound philosophy, especially if you play favorites.

[AcadiusLost]

I certainly agree than animal companion abuse is the same sort of scenario, and equally distasteful. Differences being:

1) Animal companions we can fix with better scripting. It's a real animal, animals die (permanently). No free re-summons- you should need to bond with a new companion, which should really become harder and harder the more you've lost, in my opinion. These problems existed in NWN1-ALFA as well, so folks ought to be familiar with the stance on it- definitely OOC, definitely exploitive.

2) Animal companions aren't long-range, nor do they offer invisibility for added escape chances. So, the potential "payoff" for abusing them is lower.

To clarify, the problem is not only that the tactic can technically be used via the game engine to striking effect, it's also that the tactic can be called justified from an IC perspective, as a creative use of the Warlock's abilities. Seems to me that makes for a real challenge to enforce in a way that's satisfactory, especially considering if it happens, it's not likely going to be while others are around to witness it.

[Vendrin]

I'd consider it exploiting the AI, and that's cheating, and be heavily punished for it.

[ayergo]

Sounds more like "Kiting" which you can actually do with any class because the pathfinding in NWN will never be as good or predictive as the human brain.

NWN2 actually makes this easier, as monsters are not likely to cross ATs. Any class can accomplish this in wide open areas with ease.

[AcadiusLost]

The natural follow-up question then is, if a soloing PG'er exploits AI in the forest without a DM to see it, does it make a sound?

Just saying, "heavily punish" only works as a significant deterrent if there is a means to prove/tell if someone is actually exploiting, no?

I'd be more in favor of a mechanistic fix, like perhaps adding a long cool-down time to Walk Unseen. If possible, the boosted cool-down could only apply to the second and subsequent uses of the power in quick succession, for example. Not sure if we can adjust cooldown situationally, but a 5-minute cooldown, for example, would make the tactic exponentially less effective without overly constraining "normal activities"- unless the "sneak up invisible, attack, go invisible again" is a normal activity for Warlocks (which it may well be, really). One combo of this kind seems fair enough, 40 of them in a setting is way to much. Reasonable people can disagree about where the tipping point is.

[edit: re: kiting, it takes 2 to kite, as I understand it. Solo exploit strategies have traditionally been our larger problems- and the equivalent of an infinite backpack of invisibility potions is always going to be a concern, IMHO]

[ayergo]

walk unseen? i thought the problem reported was with Flee the Scene?

Invisibility has its risks, as you can still be heard and monster AI can and will pick up on it.

I haven't done extensive testing in NWN2, but i sure did in NWN1. It seems like an easy out but more often then not the creature can get off one or two attacks before you can escape to the point of not getting hit, and even then involves getting across an AT generally.

But thats all just talk. I have been ineffective at PGing with a Warlock thus far.

I invite someone who knows better to venture into my dungeons or into the cloakwood at night to show me how this works.

This doubting Thomas would like to stick his hands in the wounds please.

[JaydeMoon]

I think it all sounds horribly PGish and meta gamish and all that rot...

But it's really hard to argue with "Show me".

[ayergo]

Well it could well be there, but i wager i can remove the advantage with careful planning.

Unless i can duplicate the advantage though its a moot point... hence my plea for help.

[bartleby]

Im rather tired right now and know next to nothing about warlocks but ... Why dont we just log every time a char uses a warlock power that could be unbalencing. If there are x number of occurances of an action in a time span of y automaticly flag it and report it and the cercumstances around it? If its a DM session or the logs support it making sence no worries. If on the other hand its some one abusing it ... well if you cant play it right it gets taken away and make it very well known that if it looks like your abusing it you can have your warlock privliges revoked.


Im sure this has probably already been said somewhere and i just havent seen it but im tired and its late and sorry for the waste of a post if it has.

[Mitch]

I think the main argument against Flee The Scene isn't how well it affects a solo warlock but how, when grouped, a warlock can become a haste battery.

So in some ways a solo test won't really solve it but it needs to be a test where a warlock in the party continually spamming flee the scene makes the party overpowered by granting it perma-haste.

[Akivaria]

Right... because DMs are never going to notice a soloing warlock pwning entire dungeons. Someone will see this long before it becomes a major problem, and punish the offender accordingly.

[Sintaqx]

Kiting isn't as effective as it once was. To kite well you need a partner, then you are exploiting the AI as it will attack the most recent, highest damaging attacker. Otherwise you are simply shooting on the run (something a lock can't do) which happens with a -2 to the attack and leaves you with only 1 attack in the round, as it should.

A warlock with Eldritch Spear, Walk Unseen, and Leaps and Bounds with a decent move silent score has a good chance of walking through most places with relative impunity, and can pick off the minions, even at a fairly close range, before whittling down the boss-man. In an open field this is even easier. A kiting archer with Dash and/or a level in Barbarian or a couple in Monk can do some of this by running out of perception range, but that's not an option that's always available like the lock's Walk Unseen is. A lock with Flee the Scene can do about the same thing though.

A lock with flee the scene in a party makes for a fast moving, hard hitting party. Maybe overpowered, maybe not. I've never been in a party with a warlock, but I'm more than willing to storm the cloakwood with a level 6 group and solo a dungeon to see what can be done with a twinked warlock.

Possibly an ideal group of four lvl 6 for pwnage testing: Fighter/barb w/plate and either shield/axe or Power Attack greataxe, Cleric w/plate and tower shield/warhammer, Warlock with Flee the Scene, eldritch spear and leaps and bounds (at least flee the scene), single-class ranger archer (manyshot)

[ayergo]

If we're worried about folks wanting to group up with a level 6 warlock, i fail to see the problem with that. Folks will also want to group up with a level 6 cleric for similar reasons, or a level 6 bard. Support cat is support.

The only issue is if they are overpowered solo, and thats what needs to be tested.

As for this theory that they can go in and pick off things one by one with impunity, that could well be but i want to see it in the cloakwood at night.

Sintaqx can you spare me 10 mins to help this blind squirrel find a nut? I'll be around after 5:30pm ish West coast time.