Hmm... maybe. And there I thought he was giving credit to my great post a couple of pages ago.
Rotku wrote:I comletetly agree, BB,. I like the idea behind it, however I feel that it is pushing it a bit too far. Having an HDM review pannal, with questions been asked such as "What does this character bring to the server?", is a bit over the top. To suggest a couple of alternatives:
(1) Currently there is (or use to be) a forum to post in for level 10+ PCs and PrCs. A similar format could be used, in order to make note. That way any trends could be picked up.
(2) Permission needs to be granted by the HDM, as opposed to any DM. Hopefully the HDM should disucss it with the DMs on his/her server, hence getting the opinion of more than one DM.
I don't know. Guess it doesn't really matter.
Just trying to make sure I don't get associated with one of those people who support >1 start
As great a relief as it is to have that cleared up... to the matter in hand.
Rotku's suggestion is certainly a viable alternative: in practice anyway we'll be following this route till we have a second Live server. I think AL's concerns are rather overstated. After all, bio approval for various races was a fairly common feature of NWN1 ALFA, and one broadly supported by those who wanted to make a serious attempt at playing those races - and who preferred to not be undermined by the, ah, shall we say, less-committed fly-bys. This exercise simply standardises and centralises: that is the real issue. It also tags neatly onto the PT exercise, for all that they are distinct, in that it allows for a better handle on population, which remains one of the significant concerns. However, there are certainly other ways around this, such as simple by-server population limits. Would also be nice to have some feedback on Favoured Souls.
I'm probably more focussed on the proposal that covers "any" advantage, having (1) a decent story and (2) DM support.
All "ECL races" have some pretty easily ID'd advantages, usually innate abilities beyond those of non ECL races. Darkness, invisibility, resistance to certain elements, whatever.
Any non-ECL race could have a player asking for (or even needful DMs suggesting!) possibly different, not-exactly-numerical advantages. Membership as of day one in an NPC faction (military, religious, other), nobility, family member is a canon (or ALFA canon) NPC, stuff like that.
In my limited NWN1 experience, I think that DMs have already been doing some "approval / story collaboration" stuff on the non-ECL advantages stuff. I.e., if you asked to have your PC set up as a Zhentarim agent from day one (getting to live in say, an impenetrable barracks, access to top notch discount / loaner gear, access to cheap healing, access to NPC allies who you can run crying to if other NPCs or PCs give you a bloody nose, etc.), the DM-in-charge would probably want to ensure that the player had a working knowledge of what the heck the Zhents stood for... or if not, have the time to give a crash course and pointers to good sourcebooks ("Lord of Darkness" for instance), before saying "ok, day one, you're a Zhent." Insufficient knowledge might just mean starting the character anyhow, and the PC being IC'ly short on facts about the Zhents, but hoping to catch their eye and get a job anyhow, learning about them IC'ly as they go.
Same would go for Harpers, Thayans, Shades, the Purple Dragons of Cormyr, the Shadow Thieves of Amn, the Cult of the Dragon, etc. I suppose for any other canon organization where some "edge" (even when balanced against disadvantages) that was being obtained out the gate. I.e., you don't start with 300gp like everyone else, you start with 300gp and hundreds of likeminded, allied NPCs across ALFA. Usually, these organizations will long outlast the PC members (i.e., I do not imagine any ALFA plot that would say, destroy the Zhentarim forever).
Some things might not be big organizations, exactly, but more localized advantages. Sembian "noble" for instance, takes discussion. Priest of any deity, who is hoping to link up with a temple represented in ALFA for a free bed & pchest, that probably requires a couple minutes discussion as well (as in, "can I start my priest as an acolyte of the Gondsmen who have their temple in Shipwright Lanes?").
Anyhow, with NWN1, I do believe that at least token discussion and approval usually takes place if you're doing something where there's even a bit of non-numerical edge. You cannot just stroll onto a server with a PC1 and say "I'm playing the long lost son of Elminster, don't worry though, I won't ever use that advantage." DMs disapprove that, and might be fine with your PC bluffing that as background all the time (eventually coming across a fitting consequence), without it being true, of course.
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The above is just to illustrate that the "PCs without a numerical edge" tend to get a little discussion, business as usual in NWN1. Discussion is good, it helps with goals & background awareness.
If that is extended to "PCs with a numerical edge," do we actually expect a problem? That is, do we expect anyone's going to tell their DMs "my tiefling can trace his lineage directly to Demogorgon", or "my drow ranger dual wields scimitars and is well respected in the former Ten Towns region," or "my duergar was adopted by a family of tree-squirrels but learned to use his racial powers anyhow," or "my svirfneblin woke up in Waterdeep an amnesiac and knows as little about svirfneblin culture and background as the player, yet has all racial advantages anyhow," etc.?
I guess in cases, the numerical advantages will also be tied to non-numerical advantages, but the same bio would cover it. I.e. "my drow is a wealthy noble as of day one" or "my aasimar is a valued and loyal agent of the Purple Dragons, with a generous pension plan" etc.
Again, DM-player communication before grabbing an advantage, I do not see a problem. If the communication reveals a terrible mismatch between the DM and player views on the world ("Oh, I thought the Zhents still worshipped Cyric... Bane's alive again?"), well, it's the right time to catch the issue and coach on it.
I do not have strong feelings either way on a "central" authorization, although it would catch "approval shopping", which I think would be a rare phenomenon in a mature RP community. Yes it's happened a few times I know of with level authorizations in NWN1 (DM on Server A wants to tie a level-up to a quest's end, DM on Server B innocently grants level to a requesting player, unaware of the Server A plans), but maybe waiting to see if anyone gets burned on the topic before worrying about central authorizations makes sense.
Doing a little recording though, centrally, probably makes perfect sense, as of day one: "Dear everyone, PC Zydecko Twistknife is a Zhentarim Swordhar, if he visits Zhent faction sites on your server, PM me (or my teammates) for more info regarding his current relationship with the faction, including anything he does to worsen or improve such relationship on your server" Again, much the same thing as goes on in Player Advancement forums re: PC 10+, PRC quests, etc.
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In any case, I've gone well off the "PT only" topic, though I think focussed on one of the two proposals.
Having a standard / non-advantaged PC's bio acknowledged and approved by DMs is good, but optional.
Having a non-standard / advantaged PC's bio acknowledged and approved by DMs might be both good, and important to do for fairness and consistency in PW play. Advantage here can be in numbers or various RP forms of support, or both... but they're definitely worth something more than the 300gp other PCs start with. Unless a server is absolutely saturated (from the local team's opinion) with "Thayan Svirfneblin Noblemen", odds are, they'll find a way to story collaborate and make room for any unusual, but non-ridiculous, advantaged PC.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
If we go with Thangorns, I think we need Aasimir's as well as Tieflings. Balance it out.
Can you please extrapolate on your response here and the reasons for it?
Just so you know it creates a lot of extra work for the beta test which I have already put my hand up to do and is already going to take me 3 months-ish.
The main places it is going to take more time is when I double up all my work for tieflings for the aasimar race.
Basically the test I am proposing is a mechanical test to ensure that scripted systems work and maintain rp immersion for all. I chose tieflings as the fastest point from conception to implementation.
I'd be more than happy to include aasimars in this test if someone tech savvy chose to devote their time to assisting me but since I've been giving people the opportunity to help on Moonsea and have had only a few takers, I'm not holding my breath.
Of course if the community decides they want to test other plane-touched in the same beta test, they just have to be prepared to wait longer for the test to go ahead and/or get me some more labour .
On indefinite real life hiatus
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
Taking BB's reasoning on board, tomorrow I'll start some polls for the DMs to vote on: Would you like to have bio approval for UD PCs? Would you like to have bio approval for PT PCs? Would you like to have bio approval for PCs of any race with an extraordinary background?
Just an FYI Thangs. We've got lots of pieces written here and there for what you're trying to accomplish technically so we may be able to hit the ground running on your proposal once you're ready to rumble.
Rusty wrote:The other area input would be particularly useful on, is population control. Thangs rightly highlighted this: does anyone have anything to add?
I'll just use this to reiterate my principal opposition to unequal access to playing a race of the player's chosing. Denying a player the right to play the same PC race as another seems fundamentally wrong to me, be the reason failing special acceptance, population control, or insufficient bribes.
Of course, Admin can dismiss the principle of equality, but if we wish to follow it, the only feasible - and highly impractical - population control system I could think of would be: "Once PT/UD population reaches a level above target percentage, all PT/UD PCs become inelligible for live play until the target population percentage is reached again."
Which would be quite ridiculous, therefore I think our choice needs to be whether we are willing to accept to deal with as many "special" characters as ALFAn players care to roll up, or not.
Another option someone could come up with would be universal, centralised PC approval - which I think is bureaucratic overkill. We do have an application process which should entitle the acceptee to playing all available ALFA PC concepts.
Whereas, for the record, I feel that bio approval is warranted for PT and extraordinary, but not UD. So, reasonable people disagree, hopefully in a reasonable manner.
Now, I think I erred in putting up these two proposals together in the first place. It's muddied the waters on what Thangs meant as a pure PT proposal. So, I'm going to start a new thread for Rusty's proposal. Anybody who wants to copy over their commentary to it is welcome to. I believe that it is still calling commentary and people would welcome more time to discuss it, whereas I think Thangorn's proposal is ready for pure Admin review. As this is ALFA, I'm prepared to be told otherwise. Vehemently.
Wynna wrote:Whereas, for the record, I feel that bio approval is warranted for PT and extraordinary, but not UD.
I'm curious as to why.
PT share most of the same canon and locales as humans, dwarves, halflings etc. do, in fact, most of them grew up and lived among them. They are arguably a more natural part of the "regular" human's environment than are exotic subterrenean people who have amounts of specific extra canon dedicated to them.
Also, the LA difference points out pretty well which character is more "extraordinary", and should require more responsibility and education, at the very least to make sure the potential players are aware of the hardships awaiting them.
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