Travel map vs Dynamic travel area vs grid building

Thangorn · Post by **Thangorn** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:04 am

Okay I'm a little confused now..

so before I go building my uber travel map. Are all the other current mod builders just grid building hundreds of areas?

Are servers easily able to handle the load of these areas now? I wasnt sure but if I can get some comment on the current technical ramifications of making mods that have lots of exteriors, that'd be great..

indio · Post by **indio** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:56 am

I was sure I'd go the travel map route, but YATT makes exterior building with seamless transitions pretty straight-forward, and so I dropped my plan to build one.

You can host a module in directory mode up to 2GB safely enough (obviously you need a well-spec'd host, but that won't prove difficult), and 3GB with some skillz. But if you have say 20-30 exteriors you'll safely be under 2 GB so it's not an issue.

More than 30 exteriors is too much work to contemplate. I like 16 exteriors in a 4x4 grid, at whatever scale suits your conception of overland travel.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:29 am

I'm hoping we can get a TSM 003 module hosted with a fair number of exterior areas in to get some idea of how it handles- the travel map is an attractive alternative in many ways, but IMHO needs some scripted system development to really make it work well.

The downside of this, is that the two hosting machines we've got "available" currently are both sub-par for the sort of RAM being tossed around- so we may be introducing some extra overhead from limiting system resources. (my host rig has 1.5 gigs, Marklos' has 1 gig). I can do comparisons between my setup and hosting via my devel rig (2 gigs RAM), or if really necessary, swap RAM and make do with the slower, lesser ram on my main computer- but we may find having piles of large exteriors more crippling than predicted.

I'd advise for now focusing on exterior-building in the areas immediately around your hub(s), that way you can still link them via a travel map down the road without wasted effort. In the meantime, we're working on a fair bit of speculation.

Rick7475 · Post by **Rick7475** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:31 am

Well ... I have added about 12 exteriors to what Indio gave me and cut the planned area in half. So far it is under 2 gigs (1.71) and I hope to keep it around that way.

Currently, TSM runs from Rivermoot to Silverymoon with a road and all areas between are covered. From Rivermoot to Silvermoon it is about 12 24X24 areas. I will be adding about 2 or 3 more travel areas from High Hold to the Moonwood and perhaps 1 or 2 more exteriors for Silverymoon Pass and that should do it. So far the mod loads up fine with about the same delay as a NWN1 mod. I haven't tested Silverymoon's loading time, but it will probably be a little longer.

The current plan is to play with TSM 'west' and see how it goes. If all works well then we will add a 'North' to Mythril Hall, an 'East' to Sundabar, and a 'South' to Everlund. All parts would put the mod over 3 gigs, so by that time (a year or more) I am guessing we'll have better hardware and patches. But until then, the focus will be TSM 'West'.

AcadiusLost, I am planning to get the mod to you sometime in the next few days after I have tested the walk meshes and area transitions. So far there is a bug with all the bridges that I am trying to track down. I am hoping by thr end of this week or beginning of the next you'll have a mod to load

Thangorn · Post by **Thangorn** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:23 am

Okay that answers my question. So in terms of area scale... what scale are your wilderness areas? 5miles/24x24 area? 2miles?

I just want to make sure mine are consistent with the rest of you..

Rick7475 · Post by **Rick7475** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:03 pm

Thangorn wrote:Okay that answers my question. So in terms of area scale... what scale are your wilderness areas? 5miles/24x24 area? 2miles?

I just want to make sure mine are consistent with the rest of you..

Basically I just wanted to capture the essence of travelling. There is no way I can do exact scaling with the amount of exteriors that would be made because then I would have a mod 10 gigs. So my goal, after examining the map and farting around with exteriors and realizing the overwhelming amount of work and resources was to approximate travel as best I could.

I used this map:

http://www.thesilvermarches.net/uploads/003_sept19.jpg

Each square is 3 24X24 areas across and 3 24X24 areas high, for 9 24X24 areas if I wanted to fill in the entire square. However, for each square I did not build 9 24X24 areas. Instead, if travel was east west through a square, I would build 3 24X24 areas to travel across the square (such as along the Rauvin River). So from Rivermoot to Silvermoon, it is 9 24X24 areas across.

For cities like Silverymoon, it is 32X32. Now, I am hoping there won't be too much lag as almost every placeable is environmental. For Rauvinwatch Keep, it is 32X32. A dot on the map doesn't represent much

So for major centers, I just stick em in without worrying about the 3 24X24 areas scale across a square

I realize that some folks like the island hopping approach, but for me that just pigeon holes explorers. I like to have areas for PC's to explore and discover things. Or just walk by scenery like abandoned greying farm houses in the distant prairies or mysterious ancient ruins and statues on the cliff walls or in forests to peek their attention and interest. And who knows what lies underneath those ruins or between those rock cliffs?

So, I would encourage builders to do travel areas and try not to exceed 30 exterior areas for the whole mod (or 3 gigs in size).

Remember that with NWN1 we pushed the envelope with 100 - 200 M mods which we were told would be too unweildy and in the end they weren't.

Thangorn · Post by **Thangorn** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:49 pm

well here's the meat of the first 36x36 travel map super area I'll be making..

each square represents about 6-7 miles. The cyan squares represent YATT super areas which will be bordered by area transitions on the travel map, they will jump PCs to the appropriate border of the appropriate area when they hit them..

that map should be filled in completely after live but I expect to only have Zhentil Keep, Yulash and Phlan environs in plus a couple of the super areas to start off with. I also need to hit up the Dales people for that chunk of forest around Voonlar just cause I have no forest except the border forest which I dont expect to get to for a while.. maybe I can trade the southern part of the Border Forest?

anyway just thought I'd pitch what I had in mind for feedback..

indio · Post by **indio** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:56 pm

I really like the plan Dez. We've got 3 models for how to do this now and 3 models for players to choose between. I'm doing a standard grid for TSM East, and Rick has a modified grid for the west. Really, whatever works for the builder is what you should go with. Most important is whatever keeps you interested in continuing.

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:26 pm

For an alternate view, Ronan and I tested out the 3D travel map using a system he designed. It would take a ton of work to get such a map working properly and there were tons of issues that would need to be addressed if we were to use a system like that. If it can be avoided then I'd recommend going the route that TSM is and just use lots of exteriors.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:01 am

And for a counterpoint to the alternative view, an ultra-simplified version of the 3d overland travel map has been working OK for months over at Exodus, and has won the general approval of at least a respectable slice of NWN2-playing ALFA members there.

Done to the standard that Ronan and I had wanted to achieve, it's a significant hurdle (but has many desirable factors). In the meantime, though, it can be workable on very little (rescaling and change movement rate onEnter, reset them onExit).

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:07 am

That's great to hear. I may have to try that out, but I don't really know anything about Exodus. I vaguely recall visiting their website/forum a couple times last year but that's about it.

Also, I can't tell by Thangorn's comments but are you guys doing a 3D map for travel?

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:20 am

Thangorn's map picture above is showing what he's proposing to implement as a single, micro-sized overland travel area as a rescaled 32x32 area. I believe the system you toured was Sanderman's, which was the inspiration for Exodus' world map travel system. So yes, it's that same system, but there is currently no framework to make it perform "ideally". We can write some of that as we go, if that's the way we want to go with it.

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:39 am

I toured my own 32x32 area which Ronan had attached scripts to that shrank me down to microscopic size. I think I've still got a copy of it, though it might also be on the FTP still.

For Thangorn, I'd recommend going as basic as is appropriate, because trying to make a fairly realistic approximation with scaled town vegetation and buildings was a pretty big hurdle for me. I have no idea what Ronan did with the scripts but I think they can be extracted from the map.

Thangorn · Post by **Thangorn** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:12 am

I've played with the exodus prototype and it seems pretty simple to me..

In speccing out what I've got planned for the travel area -:
All my areas of interest will be bordered by a number of ATs to make sure you land in the right area and I want to turn off spell-casting while travelling in the dynamic travel areas.

I want resting to trigger a rest area, but you'd need camping gear (or survival skill) for resting to work properly.. I also want random encounters to fire from a number of triggers that'll change each update.. Of course I'll need a few 12x12 random encounter exterior areas to go along with this system.

With random encounters I want to introduce a surprise "roll" feature which gives you a round or two before the enemy AI kicks in (eg. to buff, hide in shadows, etc.) or gives the enemy a round or two before you are ready (to do same)..

All my cities will appear as miniature enviro-object versions of themselves in the dynamic travel map aswell..

I'm sure I'll have more ideas as I go along.. but thats where I am at now..

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:10 pm

Sounds awesome Thangs. Will you be able to specify the random encounter creatures for each route? For example, it would be interesting to be able to run into a group of Red Plumes on the way to Hillsfar... or a force of freedom fighters in the Dragonspines.