Skills

[psycho_leo]

Never got a better trap than moderate spike, so I wouldn't know about instant 20d6 corridors of death. And as far as changing playing styles go, NWN2 already forces a great change in style. Quite frankly rogues are already gimped when compared to NWN rogues. Sneak attacks don't work the same way as they did and (maybe that's solved) stealth is terribly buggy as in if someone in a party hears/sees a PC in stealth teh whole party does. Not to mention you now have a timer on stealth and it takes six seconds to to use it again.

[Rusty]

Right, but the issue is not NWN1 vs NWN2, it's NWN2 vs D&D.

[psycho_leo]

Right, but the issue is not NWN1 vs NWN2, it's NWN2 vs D&D.

NWN presents a better basis for comparison. Comparing a PW to a tabletop game is as innacurate as you can go.

[Rusty]

NWN1 is not particularly relevant. We are not trying to make NWN2 like NWN1; we are trying to make NWN2 like an online form of D&D. You can compare NWN1 and 2, and experience with the former can help shape decisions taken about the latter, but that doesn't change our goal or the core ruleset we're trying to implement.

[AcadiusLost]

May I suggest we move the PnP vs. NWN1 vs. NWN2 rogue debate to NWN2 brainstorming or somewhere other than Core Rules? I think it's getting pretty far off-topic from the discussion of how to juggle skills.2da currently.

Maybe start a thread for each of the skills in question? Set Traps, Parry, Taunt, Craft Trap, Craft: Alchemy? Or if rogue balance is more the question, set up a thread to debate that. Trying to keep the ACR forum clean for implementation and fixing bugs, if possible. Rather not stack it up with multipage threads about class balance issues.

[psycho_leo]

I get that, but at some point you have to draw a line. ALFA is not PnP. Treating everything as in PnP is simply not fair, for the simple reason we can't translate everything to how it would be in PnP. Doing what we can is fine, but simply doing it because it's how it is in PnP is not.

Edit: Saw your post a bit too late. If you or anyone wants to move those that's fine with me.

[Rusty]

'Fair' is only a relevant concept when we have some external/objective standard to measure against - and we do: broadly it is D&D. So there isn't anything intrinsically unfair about removing aspects of NWN that are not representative (or simply not found) in D&D.

[psycho_leo]

If being a DnD rule is your only criteria for fairness, mind explaining why we're rolling back on a hak that made paladins and rangers cast spells like thy're supposed by PnP rules? The simple fact that PnP works in certain way doesn't automatically makes it suitable for a computer game. If you don't agree with that there's nothing else I can say to you about this.

[AcadiusLost]

There is certainly validity to the argument that we should keep in mind what can be accomplished without the presence of a DM- a case which quite simply doesn't exist in PnP. I am not in favor of dropping a broad swath of scripted/engine rogue abilities without supplying some in-game, implemented alternatives (that have some use regardless of whether a DM is on and with your PC).

Examples I've mentioned include the Sense Motive / Knowledge based identifying of blank-name creatures (and perhaps their weaknesses), climb/jump (if we adapt the new NWN1 scripts), Sense Motive/Bluff/Diplomacy (if builders are directed to use these liberally in their NPC conversation/quest paths), disguise (if we settled on some sort of implementation), that sort of thing.

Right now we've got a lot of medium-priority script projects- I tackled scroll use / UMD a few weeks ago, and it ended up snowballing into an 800+ lines of code, 30+ hour mess. Some of the above mechanics may be simpler to add in than others- but I'm certainly not operating from a "remove everything that's not PnP" principle.

[AlmightyTDawg]

And bear in mind that some of the game balance decisions were made primarily with SP campaigns in mind. Traditionally, you wouldn't want rogues or bards as primaries, for example, in the slash-heavy, loads-of-mobs format. So they solved it with new abilities (e.g. set trap, semi-permanent inspirations, etc.) and obscene gear (which does a pretty good job at evening the classes - I could validly play MotB tanking with a straight Wiz though I prefer my 85+AC monstrosity more).

Runestaff has a pretty good point that stealth is ugly both in terms of level design (doesn't lend itself often to cover/concealment) and mechanics. So the natural question is whether set traps is a proper counter to that? I'm personally not overly opposed to the concept of NWN2 traps - they're just mantrap/claymore equivalents today, and the idea of embedding a magical delivery mechanism on what's essentially a single-use damage spell doesn't bother me (though it does make crafting non-spike traps a magical affair).

In practice though, beyond the Minor, the damages can get more than a bit silly - and the prices would clearly need to be rethought. Take, for example a javelin of lightning - 5d6 for 1500gp. Anyone want us to start repricing those traps in accordance with D&D item and trap pricing schemes?

I think Rogues can be balanced for the crappy implementaitons of stealth by the more useful nature of sneak attacking in NWN2. Flanking is much more tightly controlled over a quarter-circle rather than the obscene spread allowed in NWN1, which is okay. And while that may seem like a step back, Rusty's right - relative to D&D it's still pretty useful. Mostly because it's much easier in NWN2 to make and squeze through spaces to get into a flanking position. Tumble DCs don't increase, AoOs don't always fire when they should, and so on.

It's not a lock, but I don't think that set trap is the lynchpin of the balance for rogues.

[witch]

this debate is typical alfa again. Priorities wrong.

Are we trying to make a "server" here for roleplay and representing parts of the forgottenrealms and have fun or trying to make the perfect nwn PnP guidelined server out there? It seem we take "close to PnP" a bit to literal hmm.

if you want PnP go play it table top,Works fine in that enviroment. NWN doesnt have 24/7 dm coverage its based ON PnP but not PnP. huge difference.

If i read Acadius post right he spend 30+ hours and 800lines of code adjusting some skills.. No offense meant Aca, merely using it as example but cant we really use that time more useful if we want servers life and to have fun playing???

again Alfa manages to amaze me...

[AlmightyTDawg]

Are we trying to make a "server" here for roleplay and representing parts of the forgottenrealms and have fun or trying to make the perfect nwn PnP guidelined server out there? It seem we take "close to PnP" a bit to literal hmm.

Actually, I think the answer is the same to both of those questions. Little square trap lay downs of stupidly high power are clearly an uber-SP balancing decision and don't belong in a "roleplay" world.

The fact that the balancing works out the same way is cherry if you ask me. But since there's sort of an undertone of that in everything, the proper decision should take into account both of those factors. Call it messed up priorities if you want - people take balancing too far (see my discussion on ECL), but it's not something that shouldn't ever be considered.

I'm kind of torn on Parry personally. It's of very limited use (see the inability to hold space complaint above), but it's one of the few combat maneuvers/schemes we have, so I hesitate to lose that. I'm not fully convinced, but I don't think "because it's in the engine" is sufficient reason to keep it either. Actually, I think the main knock on Parry is "does anyone ever use it?" Particularly with the removal of the +4 stacking benefit from NWN1's improved Parry (the new effect of riposte -5 is numerically only 1 pt off but makes a big difference in how many hits statistically get parried), and its clear weaknesses versus any magic or ranged attack, it seems like few tears will follow its passing.

[AcadiusLost]

What takes a great investment of time is taking PnP mechanics, and working into the game in a way that doesn't require DM intervention/involvement. The intent is actually to add to the gaming experience, and help make ALFA more than just another RP NWN server. Could that time be better spent writing static quests, building areas for a server, or live DMing? Perhaps, but what it amounts to is a large initial investment of time, which will hopefully live on indefinitely thereafter without burdening DMs. It's comparatively easy to cut game content on the "not PnP" grounds, nerf down classes wherever bioware or obsidian made balance decisions that seem "overpowered" on some arbitrary scale- what takes the real effort is adding back the playing value to the game. We've done that already on a number of the ACR systems, with more lined up for the time ahead.

What gets disheartening is putting the time and effort in on these systems, and having it dismissed outright as being "unfair" or "a waste of time", based on presumptions that tech or standards is just out to nerf down this or that class. It's a reactionary stance that kind of pulls the rug out from under those of us who are trying to push the boundries of possbility outwards. For NWN1, some of this it tied up in existing PCs and module builds- people get antsy at the idea of abilities they've taken for granted changing on them, or gameplay shifting in a way the modules haven't accounted for- the slow transition through Beta to Live with NWN2 is meant in part to allow us to get a reliable framework in place before PCs are built up invested in this or that skill. Personally, I see the skillset as the largest tech barrier to Live left.

I understand, not everyone sees the same value in the PnP ruleset- but it's something that many present, and a huge number of potential, ALFA members know and love. Our efforts, where feasible, to adhere to it are what I see as one of our main draws as a community- to reach out not just to the NWN2 gamers out there, but to roleplayers in general for the future. Calling such attempts a waste of time, or other cynical waxing on how pointless such a goal is are much more damaging in my view. We've accomplished many impressive things through the engine (that /don't/ require 24/7 DM coverage) already, and will accomplish many more before we're done.

[indio]

Exactly.

[Veilan]

Aye, there are always two sides of the coin. We have to keep in mind this is a PW, and won't ever be a perfect PnP experience, but it doesn't hurt to try within reasonable limits - and I'm rather hoping the effort being put in is appreciated.

By and large achieving a balance in a complex medium like a PW between PnP and a CRPG is incredibly difficult, because the nature of the beast is so vastly less controlled.

Of course, we cannot strive for 100% PnP conformity - that would be outright delusional, because PnP has the incredible luxury of always having an arbiter at hand and thus can rely on that - but we can see where we can find that sweet spot that works for us. This may require movement in both directions, though, and should always be submitted to careful deliberation.

Anyway, I believe this topic was about skills...