Armenian genocide

Jeppan · Post by **Jeppan** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:45 am

Joos wrote:
Anyway, I am sure you will make a spectacular argument with your friend! It's a shame I will miss it!

Why would you miss it? Are you moving to the Ayers rock?

Jeppan · Post by **Jeppan** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:52 am

Joos wrote:
Joos: Wikipedia is not a good source unfortunatly
I don't undertand why Wiki would be a bad source in this instance. Every fact posted in the article has a referenced source linked to it for verification. Moreover, the article has been locked, so it can't be modfied by just anyone anymore so there is really no reason to doubt the facts, unless the reference itself is dodgy.

If you scrutinize the sources, they seem to come from reliable sources, souch as NY Times, West German foreign office, memoires of missionairies and eyewitnesses etc.

You could even look up the references quoted if you think they have been misinterpreted in the article. Anyway, I am sure you will make a spectacular argument with your friend! It's a shame I will miss it!

As a general rule wikipedia is not great for argumentation, as it is easily dismissed for being created by any user. Furthermore the sources that are quoted are the exact same ones used by the armenian genocide sites, which the nationalist mindset refuse to acknowledge as entirely true or at least have a different interpretation of it.

I am not adverse to what is said there it is just not very useful for my ongoing discussion, which has degraded somewhat. Now we turned our eyes to the property taxlaws of 1942. Right now we are looking for a movie dealing with the issue called Salkim Hanimin Taneleri by Yilmaz Karakoyunlu. The problem is that closest place that has the movie is two hours away (Jönköping) so if anyone has a copy of it I would be most happy.

Zakharra · Post by **Zakharra** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:14 pm

CLEAR!! *ZAP!* *thump thump*

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/world ... odayspaper

I can understand some of the reasoning why Congress is doing this bill, I just question the timing. It is.. real bad and could have the effect of driving away a key ally. About 75% of the supplies that head to Iraq pass thru Turkey. It's possibly one way to force us out?

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:51 pm

That's one argument I've heard, but in committee the vote was rather non-partisan with many from both parties on both sides which doesn't seem consistent with the idea that its a backdoor way to get us out. Another theory I've heard is that Turkey has been making nicer with Hamas and Iran and Hezbollah and that lot, in which case this could be interpreted as a punishment.

I have an armenian colleague. He is totally against the vote and bill, which he claims is being pushed by the more militant armenians. As we all know, militants aren't usually very reasonable folk.

An interesting note to the story...he also says that it was the Kurds that did a lot of the dirty work in removing the Armenians. There's irony in there somewhere.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:33 pm

Militant Armenians? I know some genocide survivors. None of them are militant. They are all old (if still alive) and certainly passionate about the issue, as much as any people would be if they endured the kinds of atrocities that have been described.

And BTW, if now is not a good time, when is it a good time? After all the genocide survivors are dead and gone? This issue has been on the news recently and it would seem that it wasn't a good time 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, or even 30 years ago. As far as I'm concerned, to the nine hells with Turkey. They are as bad as the Holocaust deniers in Iran. We SHOULD NOT be doing business with such people.

But then, I can stay true to my moral sensibilities because I haven't sold my soul for political office.

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:50 pm

I never said the actual sufferers of the genocide were the militant ones. There are three main political ideologies in the Armenian community, one of which is the "militant" nationalist sort. A second group is one which accommodated the Soviet annexation of Armenia. As Armenia was the only soviet republic to be willingly annexed, the place didn't fare too poorly under the arrangement, but regardless the nationalist element doesn't think too highly of the arrangement. I never asked what the third group was like. In any case, its the nationalist element which has been pushing the bill.

PensivesWetness · Post by **PensivesWetness** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:41 pm

Stormseeker wrote:Every world power and those who had power, at one time or another has oppressed, killed, or tried to suppress other humans who are different.

/me sighs As much as others place humanity above all, there will be humans who place themselves over all others...

and sometimes, they will use all means to hold that 'moral high ground'

Castano wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

this is well cited...so you can look up the sources and decide if they are biased or not. the New York Times reported extensively on the Armenian Genocide, as did German military officers and construction engineers in the area (the germans were allies w. the Turks and would have had no reason (and supposedly violated orders) to report the war crimes.

You're.... silly if you totally believe anything you read or hear. Modest distrust of anything is better than blind faith, if selective profit comes to mind. Sceptics rule.

Zakharra wrote:CLEAR!! *ZAP!* *thump thump*

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/world ... odayspaper

I can understand some of the reasoning why Congress is doing this bill, I just question the timing. It is.. real bad and could have the effect of driving away a key ally. About 75% of the supplies that head to Iraq pass thru Turkey. It's possibly one way to force us out?

Well resolutions, talk and accusations don't work...

/me sighs weakly

mxlm · Post by **mxlm** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:14 pm

Did Cipher just become a liberal or something?

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:52 pm

Denying genocide for political expediency is simply immoral. I don't really know where it falls in the American political spectrum these days as the political ideology of our two party system has become so diluted, but this ought to garner bipartisan support. It's mostly, if not entirely, a symbolic gesture.

It may well be Armenian nationalists who are the main force behind this legislation, but there's nothing militant about lobbying for recognition. What, exactly, is the problem in calling a genocide....genocide? Are we supposed to just pretend that it's not to placate Turkish sensibilities? Here's a perfect characterization of the issue:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QFolWunugK4

BTW, in return for those air bases in Turkey, the USA sends BILLIONS in foreign aid. So I don't think for a minute that we can't pay for our air bases AND take the moral high ground on this issue at the same time. A little digging on USAID revealed the following:

http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/cbj2007/summary.html

Zakharra · Post by **Zakharra** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:08 am

Now's not a good time because it will piss Turkey off when we need them. It shouldn't even be an issue. There was a genocide, I'm not sure why the Turks have such a problem with that. It's not like their nation even existed at that time.

Grand Fromage · Post by **Grand Fromage** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:13 am

mxlm · Post by **mxlm** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:15 am

More than a few Americans have trouble admitting that their forefathers committed genocide. The Japanese...heh. They have some real trouble facing what was done during WWII.

Cipher, I was mostly kidding. My point, such as it was, was simply that the people who state, "country x has done/is doing y, which is immoral/bad/evil/omgwtf, therefore we shouldn't give country x aid/weapons/be their allies/omgwtfbbq" tend to be liberals. Or Ron Paul.

As far as this issue in particular goes, well. If we're going to start pursuing a 'moral' foreign policy in the ME, I'm down. I doubt this is a precursor to such a move, however, and given that, the move is mind-bogglingly stupid.

If it is, as has been alleged, an attempt to shut down the war by pissing the Turks off, then it's less stupid. Possibly; I haven't looked into it, so I have no idea whether or not there'd be alternate supply routes into Iraq which would be as efficient.

I'm also not convinced that foreign pressure has much effect on getting countries to reevaluate their history. We occupied Japan and they're still in denial, ffs.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Zakharra · Post by **Zakharra** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:55 am

There are alturnative routes, but Turkey was the fastest we could get supplies in from the US. Any other route would have to be routed either thru the Suez canal, which Egypt controls(might not let us thru) or clear around Africa and up the Indian Ocean and thru the Persian Gulf.

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:15 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071017/ap_ ... _ea/turkey

Well if it was an attempt to shut the war down consider it an abject failure...it seems that it may instead end up expanding the war.