Bomb Scare

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Grand Fromage
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Post by Grand Fromage »

ç i p h é r wrote: If I were to make a judgment, it'd probably be that she did this intentionally for some obscure self gratifying purpose.
I'll give you a more specific, reasonable scenario.

Light-up clothing has been coming out for the last few years. Like any good nerd, she saw it on Thinkgeek and said "hey, that's awesome, I want one", then she saw the price and said "hell no". Then, being a MIT robotics nerd, she figured "hey, I can hit Radio Shack and make my own for ten bucks", then she did, and voila.
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Post by Zakharra »

If you can come up with an example of a terrorist wearing a bomb on the outside of his/her clothing, complete with flashing lights, maybe I'll start taking your argument seriously. Until then, you're arguing a position that is clearly untenable; 'the cops responded reasonably' can only be true if mistaking what she wore for a bomb was reasonable. It wasn't. It clearly wasn't.
The fact that they didn't shoot her right off the bat says that there is some competence there.
We obviously define minimal differently. I'd describe what we have as incompetence.

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Grand Fromage
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Post by Grand Fromage »

I'm glad there are people who consider "they don't shoot innocent people on sight" to be an acceptable level of competence in our law enforcement. I was a fool to expect something beyond managing to avoid murdering people (most of the time). I feel safer already!
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Prior to this incident at Logan, would any of you have considered wearing a circuit board necklace replete with blinking lights, exposed wires, a battery, and play dough in an airport?

And to address the more glaring remarks:
mxlm wrote:We obviously define minimal differently. I'd describe what we have as incompetence.
So in your mind, every baggage handler and security guard should have a degree in Electrical Engineering? And if that were the case, wouldn't they find better paying - and less risky - jobs?

You have a fundamental problem with expectations. You *expect* underprivileged Americans to better handle possible life and death situations, but you don't *expect* overly privileged Americans to make good decisions.
My point is that she has the right not to be shot by government agents for, um, no crime at all.
She wasn't shot.
And no, this isn't analogous to pulling something that easily be confused as a weapon on an officer, because, um, what she would could not be easily confused for a bomb.
So the only thing that could *possibly* be construed as a weapon is a spray painted squirt gun?
As I've already said, there is such a thing as degrees. The proper response to 'that looks weird but is almost certainly non-threatening' is not 'don't move or I'll kill you'.
If they knew that it was "certainly non-threatening", do you really think they would be pointing a gun at the woman? Again, you seem to be failing to grasp the simple fact that they THOUGHT she was carrying a bomb. Right or wrong, they can only act on what they believe.

Can you at least recognize that there was provocation? Even assuming GF's disco jersey theory is correct (despite her own statements to the contrary), she could not be utterly oblivious to how her make shift getup would be construed in an airport, especially Logan. Yet she did it anyway.
There are ways to approach such situations that don't involve coming *this* close to killing an innocent woman. Proper training would be a nice start.
What are the more appropriate ways to deal with someone you suspect to be equipped with an explosive device?
If you can come up with an example of a terrorist wearing a bomb on the outside of his/her clothing, complete with flashing lights, maybe I'll start taking your argument seriously.
The scope of what a terrorist can or cannot do is not confined by my imagination. 9/11 was evidence of that.
Until then, you're arguing a position that is clearly untenable; 'the cops responded reasonably' can only be true if mistaking what she wore for a bomb was reasonable. It wasn't. It clearly wasn't.
As above, please explain what a more reasonable response would be, bearing in mind that the individual was *thought* to be wearing an explosive device.
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Post by mxlm »

We're arguing past each other.

Given that they thought she had a bomb, the response team did fairly well. That's not the problem (though the staffers fleeing the terminal without alerting, say, everyone else in the terminal *is* a problem).

It's the 'they thought she had a bomb' part that's the problem.
Prior to this incident at Logan, would any of you have considered wearing a circuit board necklace replete with blinking lights, exposed wires, a battery, and play dough in an airport?
I wouldn't have worn it to career day, either. So what?
So in your mind, every baggage handler and security guard should have a degree in Electrical Engineering? And if that were the case, wouldn't they find better paying - and less risky - jobs?

You have a fundamental problem with expectations. You *expect* underprivileged Americans to better handle possible life and death situations, but you don't *expect* overly privileged Americans to make good decisions.
You have a fundamental problem with argumentation. Your fundamental problem is that you're unable to avoid using strawmen.

Who said anything about a degree in electrical engineering? Who thinks such a degree is necessary for a basic working knowledge of explosives?

Well, apparently you do. I don't, nor have I ever indicated that I do.

I expect competence in my security. That's all.

For instance, after someone with (apparently) no qualifications says to the experts that 'I think that woman there might have a bomb', the proper first step is to, y'know, ascertain whether or not there's good reason to think that, and proceed from there.

The first step should not be 'move and you're dead'.
She wasn't shot.
Allow me to rephrase; she has a fundamental right not to be menaced with lethal force for no good reason. Better?
So the only thing that could *possibly* be construed as a weapon is a spray painted squirt gun?
Strawman.
If they knew that it was "certainly non-threatening", do you really think they would be pointing a gun at the woman? Again, you seem to be failing to grasp the simple fact that they THOUGHT she was carrying a bomb. Right or wrong, they can only act on what they believe.
You've misunderstood. The argument is that they shouldn't have thought she had a bomb in the first place.
Can you at least recognize that there was provocation? Even assuming GF's disco jersey theory is correct (despite her own statements to the contrary), she could not be utterly oblivious to how her make shift getup would be construed in an airport, especially Logan. Yet she did it anyway.
There was provocation only if you believe it's reasonable to expect people to say 'breadboard + LED + battery = bomb'. I don't happen to believe that. Her error was assuming there was more competence than there actually was.
What are the more appropriate ways to deal with someone you suspect to be equipped with an explosive device?
You're shifting the goalposts. See above.
The scope of what a terrorist can or cannot do is not confined by my imagination. 9/11 was evidence of that.
You cannot possibly be making that argument in good faith.
As above, please explain what a more reasonable response would be, bearing in mind that the individual was *thought* to be wearing an explosive device.
Did you not read what I wrote?

The 'thinking she had an explosive device' was the unreasonable part.
Last edited by mxlm on Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Zakharra »

It's the 'they thought she had a bomb' part that's the problem.
You've misunderstood. The argument is that they shouldn't have thought she

had a bomb in the first place.

There was provocation only if you believe it's reasonable to expect people to say 'breadboard + LED + battery = bomb'. I don't happen to believe that. Her error was assuming there was more competence than there actually was.

The 'thinking she had an explosive device' was the unreasonable part.
The security people cannaot take a chance that something night not be a bomb. All it takes is one missed explosive and everything is ruined. They don't bat 100%, tests have proven that, but thet have to look at everything as a possible bomb. No matter what it looks like. Especially with electronics. All a bomber has to do is get lucky once. Security has to get lucky 100% of the time.
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Post by Mayhem »

You know, if she had been a suicide bomber, running up to her with a gun and shouting "Get on the floor! Get on the floor!" was probably the best way to get her to actually detonate the damn thing in the first place.
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Post by Zakharra »

Well, it was either that or shoot her straight out.
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Post by psycho_leo »

Zakharra wrote:Well, it was either that or shoot her straight out.
Who needs terrorists when you have airport security... :roll:

Do you really believe that crap? I think the third (and far more reasonable) option is to give proper training to the ones holding the guns. So then can, you know, avoid shooting someone in the face for carrying a board with a bunch of LED lights or at the very least avoiding causing unnecessary panic. The fact that they considered the fact a real terrorist, looking to blow up an airport, would wear an explosive device OUTSIDE her clothes so everybody sees it and FOR DAYS is quite frankly comediant material. And before someone says it again, you don't need an electrical engennering degree to know that wasn't a bomb.

All that kind reaction really achieves is increase the paranoia that looms over the US, which is really the point of terrorist actions, while giving some people a false sense of security.

Do you really think Bin Laden and his buddies believe they can take down the greatest military force in the world by blowing it up piece by piece? They don't. They just need to make you all paranoid enough to do it yourselves.
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Post by Zakharra »

psycho_leo wrote:
Zakharra wrote:Well, it was either that or shoot her straight out.
Who needs terrorists when you have airport security... :roll:

Do you really believe that crap? I think the third (and far more reasonable) option is to give proper training to the ones holding the guns. So then can, you know, avoid shooting someone in the face for carrying a board with a bunch of LED lights or at the very least avoiding causing unnecessary panic. The fact that they considered the fact a real terrorist, looking to blow up an airport, would wear an explosive device OUTSIDE her clothes so everybody sees it and FOR DAYS is quite frankly comediant material. And before someone says it again, you don't need an electrical engennering degree to know that wasn't a bomb.

All that kind reaction really achieves is increase the paranoia that looms over the US, which is really the point of terrorist actions, while giving some people a false sense of security.

Do you really think Bin Laden and his buddies believe they can take down the greatest military force in the world by blowing it up piece by piece? They don't. They just need to make you all paranoid enough to do it yourselves.
They could not take the chance that it was not a bomb. Who would have thought that someone would wear a shoe bomb? I wouldn't have, but someone did. Luckily he was caught before he could blow himself up. In todays situation, the chance cannot be taken. If a bobm did look like what the girl had, and she'd blown herself up. Those who are saying that security is overreacting now, would, I'm guessing, be castigating securioty for missing such a obvious bomb in the first place.

It boils down to one simple thing, that could not take the chance. Everything had to be checked out if it's a possible bomb.

What is the Israelie or US/Iraqi response to suicide bombers?
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Post by Lusipher »

Zak stop wasting your time arguing with these nitwits. Nothing anyone does can ever be good enough to some around here. If your in a situation such as that your going to react hopefully with the training you received. They reacted to a threat and they did what was necessary. They did not kill the girl although she is lucky they didnt. In this day and age I would rather a damn security guard overreact than not react at all or quick enough. Screw her civil liberties. She was stupid enough to pull the stunt. If it were me I would take her into a room and curbstomp her dumb ass just for being so stupid.

The fact that this argument has hit this many pages is absurd. Mxlm, should the folks in charge of security done nothing? GF, the whole Hunger Team Force thing in Boston was stupid I agree, but not everyone is up on the Adult Swim so those police etc just reacted even though it made them look stupid. Id rather they react and look stupid than not react at all.

Bombs can be small as almost nothing. As Cipher stated they can even be everyday items that most folks wouldnt blink twice about. I am glad that these guards/cops at least reacted even though it turned out to be nothing. The real dumbass is the girl who thought she could even walk into an airport in this day and age and pull a stunt like this. I hope she gets jail time for it.
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Post by Mayhem »

Zakharra wrote:Well, it was either that or shoot her straight out.
Or, as I already stated, all it would have taken in this instance was one security guy to sidle up next to her and say "you know, miss, that looks a bit suspicious from a distance, would you mind putting it in your bag so as not to scare the uneducated?"
Sombedoy, no doubt wrote:But if it was a real bomb that guy might have gotten blown up.
If it had been a real bomb *all* of the officers involved would have gotten blown up.
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Post by Grand Fromage »

Danubus wrote:Screw her civil liberties.
Please leave the country or kill yourself, kthx. The idea an American truly believes this is sickening.
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Post by mxlm »

Zakharra wrote: It boils down to one simple thing, that could not take the chance. Everything had to be checked out if it's a possible bomb.
Everything is a possible bomb.
Danubus wrote:If your in a situation such as that your going to react hopefully with the training you received.
Yeah, that's sorta the point. Or at least part of the point.
Danubus wrote:Should the folks in charge of security done nothing
False dichotomy.

Y'know, Dan, if you're going to be casting stones, you ought first make sure you're not in a house of glass.
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