Psychologists and torture

[fluffmonster]

heh...saying torture is okay cuz i don't care about them...that's exactly what mulu's point was, though it pains me to say so. Torture is about wanting to inflict suffering on someone, its not about something useful like gaining intelligence. Glad to see we all agree.

Now as for whether we should use it...of course not. Unless you want to say your country is no better than China or Iran or Stalin's Soviet Union. Myself, I'd rather have a country other peoples look up to, and I've never looked up to a bully.

[Mulu]

But you are saying that they would be rational if the US was about peace and love.

No, I'm saying *we* wouldn't be their target.

One possible reason they hate us is because we are #1 in the world. In economic, cultural and militar. They are faced with the fact thgat their culture hasn't done much to advance in the last 500 years or so. I know this is not all of the reasons, or even the main one, but it is one. Envy.

No Zak, they hate us because we've hurt their people in the past, and continue to do so in the present. As I said before, they have legitimate grievances.

[Grand Fromage]

I've tried, but every time I do, I get this overwhelming urge to beat one of the convicted terrorists we have with a blunt rock.

You know that none of the ones we're holding have been convicted, right? They haven't had trials at all. Under western law they are all innocent. In fact, more than half have been released without prosecution: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15361740/

So either they were completely innocent and imprisoned/tortured without cause, or they were guilty and released without punishment. Either option sucks. Give them a fair trial, if they're convicted I don't give a flying fuck what happens to them, but the trial part is non-negotiable.

[Nekulor]

No gf, I mean the 9/11 related guys, Richard Reid, and the guys associated with the london bombings, which didn't even happen in my country.

[Zakharra]

But you are saying that they would be rational if the US was about peace and love.

No, I'm saying *we* wouldn't be their target.

You're guessing on that. It's a belief that yuou hope is true, but I seriously doubt that it would happen. Has any society that came close to being just peace and love ever survived by not attacking or defending itself? No. Something has always destroyed it. The barbarians at the gates.

One possible reason they hate us is because we are #1 in the world. In economic, cultural and militar. They are faced with the fact thgat their culture hasn't done much to advance in the last 500 years or so. I know this is not all of the reasons, or even the main one, but it is one. Envy.

No Zak, they hate us because we've hurt their people in the past, and continue to do so in the present. As I said before, they have legitimate grievances.

Then let them use legitimate methods of discourse to change things. Get elected into positions of power. Instead they use blunt brutal force to force their very strict view of Islam on others. And it's working for them. The PR war is being won because there are people here at home that are unwilling to stick it out. If we leave Iraq now, it will collaspe and Iran and Syria with Al-Qida will come in. Turkey will probably pile onto the Kurdish north for good measure. All becasue we did what the left (and the real loony left. ie Moveon.org and placves like that) wants. Hence validating that their way will work. Why should they stop then?

You're also assuming that they can be rational. From what you've been saying on the other thread about religion, they aren't rational, because to them it is a religious war. God(Allah) is telling them to maim, murder and kill anyone they can, for 'peace'. The peace they want is their peace. We've seen what kind of government they want. The Taliban.

[NickD]

Point made. However, I wouldn't claim to be perfect. I still can't not hate them. I've tried, but every time I do, I get this overwhelming urge to beat one of the convicted terrorists we have with a blunt rock. Their crimes are just too heinous for me to say, "You know what... I can forgive that." Besides, they don't show any remorse for their crimes, even when they kill innocent women and children in the name of god. The same god, by the way, that I follow, but under a different name. They are killing people WHO FOLLOW A VARIATION OF THE SAME RELIGION. I don't see a whole lot of rationality in that. Its unfortunate that those bastards even qualify as brothers in a similar faith.

So when you (as in the collective you of America, not you personally) don't show any remorse for killing innocent women and children it's OK, all you have to do is say "collateral damage" and "it's a war, stupid" and that makes everything alright? When it's perfectly OK to say "kill them all and let God sort them out" and "nuke the entire middle east and turn it into a car park" and "I hope they carpet bomb the entire country and build some McDonalds there.", these things are justified by your anger?

Guess what. You don't get to pick and choose which of Jesus' teachings and beliefs you want to follow. Either you accept what the son of God has laid down for you or he's not in your heart. And if he's not in your heart... you better either fear death or hope us athiests are right.

[Mulu]

Then let them use legitimate methods of discourse to change things. Get elected into positions of power.

You mean, like Hamas did? And what was our response? We gave guns to the losing party in that election. Lots of guns. We don't respect them when they try to use legitimate methods, which leaves them only with illegitimate ones.

[mxlm]

Nekulios, if you really have this overwhelming urge to inflict bodily harm on people who may or may not be terrorists, this administration has positions open for you.

Go sign up, already.

[Zakharra]

Then let them use legitimate methods of discourse to change things. Get elected into positions of power.

You mean, like Hamas did? And what was our response? We gave guns to the losing party in that election. Lots of guns. We don't respect them when they try to use legitimate methods, which leaves them only with illegitimate ones.

So? What do you think they would have done with that power? Attacked Israel. Sometimes evil wins elections or is handed power if it doesn't take it by force. The Nazis of Germany are the best example of that. They didn't win power, but were given it. Chavez in Venezuala is another. The Communists of the USSR, China, N. Korea, N. Vietnam, all siezed power. Of those regimes, the Nazis were destroyed, the USSR fell apart (although Putin is trying to put it back together again), N. Vietnam won it's wars. N. Korea is tottering on the brink of collapse.

The USSR was fought economically and militarily, China is being fought economically. N. Korea we'd prefer to ignore. N. Vietnam is more open to us now.

Hamas/Hezbolla is very much like the Nazis were in their cruelty and what I call evil. All they want is death for all of their enemies. Whereas most of the West would prefer to leave them alone if they would only leave us and our allies alone. Which they won't. If Hamas agreed to give up it's aims if wiping out Israel and violence, we'd work with it. Just like we have with the Fatah(sp( movement. Which was a terrorist movement. The Fatah has moved to a more peaceful nature, which is encouraging. Unlike Hamas.

[Mulu]

So? What do you think they would have done with that power?

Govern. That's the point of running for an elected position. They can attack Israel all they want without the government. But the point here is that neither you nor the administration allows others to pursue legitimate means to address legitimate grievances, which means all they have left is to submit or be terrorists.

The Fatah has moved to a more peaceful nature, which is encouraging.

What definition of "peaceful" are you using? If you mean they chant "death to America" less, that's only because we are giving them *lots* of money and guns.

[Nekulor]

So? What do you think they would have done with that power?

Govern. That's the point of running for an elected position. They can attack Israel all they want without the government. But the point here is that neither you nor the administration allows others to pursue legitimate means to address legitimate grievances, which means all they have left is to submit or be terrorists.

The Fatah has moved to a more peaceful nature, which is encouraging.

What definition of "peaceful" are you using? If you mean they chant "death to America" less, that's only because we are giving them *lots* of money and guns.

Yes mulu, I believe that is the agreed definition of peaceful zak and I are using.

In any case, I am willing to forgive pretty much anyone and everyone that seeks forgiveness. I'm not god though (universe would be scary if I was, trust me on that one) and terrorists I have a hard time forgiving. If they want to give up evil and be good people again, fine, let the court give them a lesser sentence, and I'll forgive them. I just have a hard time forgiving remorseless killers of innocents. At least we regret our collateral damage. By the way, I am saddened by every innocent Iraqi death. Those people deserve much better than to either be a) meat shields or b) accidental target practice. Our urban warfare training needs to be reworked so it makes our troops ready to fight in a combat zone with heavy civilian populations. We've gotten better, but urban warfare is the new trench warfare, and we need to fine tune the tactics.

[Joos]

At least we regret our collateral damage.

Someone give this guy a fucking medal!

[psycho_leo]

In any case, I am willing to forgive pretty much anyone and everyone that seeks forgiveness. I'm not god though (universe would be scary if I was, trust me on that one) and terrorists I have a hard time forgiving. If they want to give up evil and be good people again, fine, let the court give them a lesser sentence, and I'll forgive them. I just have a hard time forgiving remorseless killers of innocents.

You don't have to forgive them. And its certainly not the Justice system's place to forgive terrorists or any other person. Its their place to give fair trial and treatment to suspects of terrorism, like with any other crime. Give them a trial, convict them and then apply the penalty. Torturing them without trial cause you feel its justified by some sort of righteous anger is wrong.

[Zakharra]

So? What do you think they would have done with that power?

Govern. That's the point of running for an elected position. They can attack Israel all they want without the government. But the point here is that neither you nor the administration allows others to pursue legitimate means to address legitimate grievances, which means all they have left is to submit or be terrorists.

They were not willing to give up their radical leanings though. That is why aid was cut to them. Aid, which I will point out that Europe also cut when Hamas won the elections. Guess the Europeans don't trust Hamas either. If Hamas wants to rule well, then they need to give up the violence and aggressive hatred that they throw out. They do that and the aid will flow. As it is to Fatah. What about Hamas's radical agenda don't you understand? They are a terrorist organization. Fatah isn't, as far as I understand or are changing from one. As long as they stay terrorist, then all I will say to them is to stop a bullet the hard way.

The Fatah has moved to a more peaceful nature, which is encouraging.

What definition of "peaceful" are you using? If you mean they chant "death to America" less, that's only because we are giving them *lots* of money and guns.

They can chant all they want, but when chanting becomes more than that. They have become a Enemy. We aren't the only ones giving them money. Russia and China and Iran have their fingers in the pie of the Middle East as well as Europe. Although Europe is to a much smaller degree of meddling lately.

*edit* I am talking about the entire Middle East here, not just Fatah. For Fatah, they arer at least willing to negotiate with their neighbors. Which means giving up some of the things they've demanded in the past for consessions. Like Israel's destruction.

[Zakharra]

In any case, I am willing to forgive pretty much anyone and everyone that seeks forgiveness. I'm not god though (universe would be scary if I was, trust me on that one) and terrorists I have a hard time forgiving. If they want to give up evil and be good people again, fine, let the court give them a lesser sentence, and I'll forgive them. I just have a hard time forgiving remorseless killers of innocents.

You don't have to forgive them. And its certainly not the Justice system's place to forgive terrorists or any other person. Its their place to give fair trial and treatment to suspects of terrorism, like with any other crime. Give them a trial, convict them and then apply the penalty. Torturing them without trial cause you feel its justified by some sort of righteous anger is wrong.

Keep it in military trials and you have something. Captured by the military, tried by the military. We cannot afford to let them into the civilian judicial system. Trying to try a detainee for 4-5 years will only muddle things to obscurity. Keep the trials simple, quick(6 months at the most) and either let them go or carry out the sentance. And if the country that the detainee is from doesn't want them or is likely to torture them, let the detainee go in a liberal's house. Let that person watch them if they care so much.