Ignoring History

AlmightyTDawg · Post by **AlmightyTDawg** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:57 pm

Clearly parliamentary countries with multiple parties show it can work, but the dynamics of compromise and negotiation is much different. There are a lot of reasons here in America why it's got a long uphill climb to evolve a third party naturally. Right now neither party would want want evolving that would cut almost exclusively from it's base, because it's close enough to 50/50 now that any such party would tip the scales - given the winner-take-all nature of the presidency (and with it judicial appointments, etc.).

For one to arise best, it would have to arise out of the middle taking from both parties, and there isn't a compelling enough ideology or unifying element to make it happen. A decent number of third party voters like me are voting for the third party as a protest, rather than because of ideology (i.e. Green, Libertarian, etc.). If that party started to have a chance, I'd have to start to evaluate the candidate a bit better and would be more cautious about how I spent my vote. As John Stewart (among others) said, it's kind of difficult to go out to a protest and chant "Be reasonable!" Everything in America is set up on this dichotomy, and it'll be difficult to break the bad habit.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:20 pm

Rotku wrote:This current term we have nine different parties in power, and I believe it is unique in been the only term since MMP was introduced that the two major parties, combined, have won over 75% of the votes.

I suspect this is because people have learned that all that really happens is the minor parties ally themselves with the major parties and just do whatever they are told, without really getting much of their own agenda across. The Greens probably being the best example of this. New Zealand First being the exception because they had Labour by the balls, but apart from getting a few things up front they haven't really achieved all that much (which is fortunate seeing as they're like the fascist party).

I would vote Greens, but I'd never vote Labour, so for me a vote to Greens is a negative vote! Which means I'll go back to National now that Don Brash is gone as leader.

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:37 am

Nick, new zealand has a semi-fascist party? That's rather odd. We have one here, but they don't have any power at all.

Rotku · Post by **Rotku** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:09 am

Nick, new zealand has a semi-fascist party? That's rather odd. We have one here, but they don't have any power at all.

Heh, Nick is exaggerating. That party he mentions is more or less a centralist, populist party, who try and appeal to the older, anti-immigration folk. They've got a fairly charismatic and controversial leader, who kiwi's love to hate, hence the exaggerations you often see about the party.

We do have the National Front, which is a far-right white party, who wish to bring back conscription, capital punishment, stop non-white immigration and so forth - more or less a neo-nazi party. However, they're not offically registered (need 500 members to register), meaning that they cannot run as a Party, how ever can sponsor candidates for individual electorates (we have two votes during national elections, for a party and a local candidate), and have never had any seats in parliament.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:50 am

I'm confused. Is that the People's Front of Judea or the Judean People's Front??

Kate

Vaelahr · Post by **Vaelahr** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:09 am

MorbidKate wrote:I'm confused. Is that the People's Front of Judea or the Judean People's Front??

I forgot about that movie.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:46 am

Vaelahr wrote:
MorbidKate wrote:I'm confused. Is that the People's Front of Judea or the Judean People's Front??
I forgot about that movie.

Splitters!

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:05 am

Rotku wrote:
Nick, new zealand has a semi-fascist party? That's rather odd. We have one here, but they don't have any power at all.
Heh, Nick is exaggerating. That party he mentions is more or less a centralist, populist party, who try and appeal to the older, anti-immigration folk. They've got a fairly charismatic and controversial leader, who kiwi's love to hate, hence the exaggerations you often see about the party.

We do have the National Front, which is a far-right white party, who wish to bring back conscription, capital punishment, stop non-white immigration and so forth - more or less a neo-nazi party. However, they're not offically registered (need 500 members to register), meaning that they cannot run as a Party, how ever can sponsor candidates for individual electorates (we have two votes during national elections, for a party and a local candidate), and have never had any seats in parliament.

So roktu, are you saying that Barack Obama is also in New Zealand? Damn...the man is everywhere...

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:07 pm

Political appointees at it again.

A report earlier this year by the Interior Department's inspector general gave numerous examples of political appointees in the Bush administration interfering with science at the Fish and Wildlife Service, but focused on MacDonald.

The report said she was heavily involved in editing scientists' reports to favor business interests and had showed internal documents to lobbyists. It noted she was trained as a civil engineer with no formal education in the natural sciences, such as biology.

The Bush Administration is essentially a cancer that metastasized throughout the entire federal government, ruining everything it touched. I can only hope Americans learn a lesson from all this.

Mizbiz · Post by **Mizbiz** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:05 pm

Any lesson learned will be forgotten in a generation anyway. Such is the way things happen.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:01 pm

Five years, tops.

sgould72 · Post by **sgould72** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:28 pm

Five years, tops.

Sadly, I have to agree.

Mizbiz · Post by **Mizbiz** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:58 pm

Well..... maybe just a bit longer than five

then

Flee the planet, thats my advice.

Veilan · Post by **Veilan** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:30 am

There have, of course, been other periods in American history when the executive branch claimed new powers that were later seen as excessive and mistaken.
[...]
But in each of these cases, when the conflict and turmoil subsided, the country recovered its equilibrium and absorbed the lessons learned. And after each of these periods of excess, we as a nation felt ashamed and tried to make up for the abuses.
[...]
There are also reasons for concern this time around that what we are experiencing may no longer be the first half of a recurring cycle, but rather the beginning of something new. For one thing, this war is predicted by the administration to last for the rest of our lives. So we are told that the conditions of national threat that have been used by other presidents to justify arrogations of power will persist in near perpetuity.

- Al Gore, The Assault on Reason

Vaelahr · Post by **Vaelahr** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:12 am

MorbidKate wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:
MorbidKate wrote:I'm confused. Is that the People's Front of Judea or the Judean People's Front??
I forgot about that movie.
Splitters!

"Are you the Judean People's Front?" Some scholars say that Jesus of Nazareth got a couple followers from the PFJ.....oh right that's the other thread.