Discussion and poll: Donations

[Adalia13]

I have been a member of this community for some time and have enjoyed, the friendships, game and overall community of course minus the drama, as these threads are unfortunately presenting. Lets get to the real issue though here. A proposal has been made, now although I am not techy and never claimed to be, I consider myself a fairly bright and kind individual who basically gets along with all and tries to give everyone their fair say. A proposal is simply a suggetion, one asking for pros and cons to the offering. A donation, not a set fee and not a mandatory one at that. I feel we who are able for whatever amount that is to give to a community that we all enjoy and consider our home away from home, is not absurd to propose. I do not believe Zicada is asking for you to take food off your table to feed the servers of ALFA, but merely suggesting ways in which we can make our community for NWN2, more efficent and less costly for one idividual. I guess it is all in how you read a post. Just my 2 cents, I would be glad to donate more ...though as Miz said I do totally agree on donations being annoymous, so that all are valued for whatever they can or cannot donate whether it be with money or building, DMing, etc. we as a community should all be valued. Also one dollar added up if everyone donated one, we would have 50 or 100 or whatever each active member donated. That is still more than 0. Again if you read Zicada's original post it is all there, a proposal, not a requirement *shrugs*

[Keith Mac]

That is an incorrect, and potentially dangerous, statement. The "owners" of a corporation are the share holders in a for-profit enterprise, and the public in a non-profit one. Here, we are concerned with liability for the Directors and Officers, not the "owners".

In Most corporations the "owners" are the stockholders and the Officers/BOD. This is the reason I put "owners" in quotes...I guess I thought you could have assumed that. My bad.

Either way lets leave ownership out and focus on liability. The people making the decisions are liable for their actions which you have pointed out already for me. Thats all I was trying to get accross with less words and legal tender.

[Mulu]

Well, I'm a tech noob, but could we avoid the ownership issue by renting instead of buying? I'm under the impression that you can pay a monthy fee to host games on corporate servers. May be more expensive in the long run, but the upshot is some guy in Norway can't abscond with the 7 central servers.

[Mikayla]

As I mentioned in the other thread, ALFA cannot contract or rent anything - only members of ALFA can. ALFA does not have a legal existence, therefore ALFA cannot have a legitimate bank account, paypal account, etc. So, the money had to be funnelled to some person, who then, hopefully, contracts with a webhosting service to provide the service we need. I say hopefully because once you make a donation to said person, that person can do with it as they please - the money is a 'gift'. Now, two people can have a contract between themselves, but that is left up to the two people both to draft - and to enforce.

[Mulu]

Sure, but the most they can steal is one month's worth of donations.

[Mikayla]

Mulu:

Mik was incorrect when she said there would be no legal recourse if the trusted individual absconded with the funds/equipment. Such an action would be an act of fraud, and that's true even in the money was given as a donation.

If I claim to be collecting money for purpose X, and you give me a donation, and I then spend the money in Vegas and you find out, well, that's fraud, technically fraud in the inducement. The actual legal repercussion would be determined by the laws of the relevant jurisdiction. Happens with soccer moms alot, when they collect money for sports equipment and then go on a spree instead.

Of course, legal action would have to be by the individuals who donated and any appropriate law enforcement agencies, not the non-existant ALFA.

Anyway, back to the discussion.

Mulu has a point, however, as with all things legal, its not so simple either. There are elements to a fraud claim and to a fraud-in-the-inducement claim. In California, those elements are:

"...(a) a misrepresentation (false representation, concealment, or nondisclosure); (b) scienter or knowledge of its falsity; (c) intent to induce reliance; (d) justifiable reliance; and (e) resulting damage. ( Lazar v. Superior Court (1996) 12 Cal.4th 631, 638, 49 Cal.Rptr.2d 377, 909 P.2d 981; 5 Witkin, Summary of Cal. Law (10th ed. 2005) Torts, § 772, p. 1135.) Fraud in the inducement is a subset of the tort of fraud. It “occurs when ‘ “the promisor knows what he is signing but his consent is induced by fraud, *295 mutual assent is present and a contract is formed, which, by reason of the fraud, is voidable.” ’ ” (Hinesley v. Oakshade Town Center 135 Cal.App.4th 289, 294-295 (Cal.App. 3 Dist.,2005).)

So, to prove fraud, you are going to have show justifiable reliance - and is it justifiable to rely on someone in another country whom you only know through a gaming club by a forum handle? Also, proving the misrepresentation and scienter may be difficult as well because you have to prove the donee is intentionally misrepresenting something from the start - how are you going to prove that this person intended to defraud you from the get-go, and didn't make the decision once he or she got the money? As for fraud-in-the-inducement, that requires mutual assent based upon a misrepresentation, and again, you will have to prove that the donee intended to defraud you from the start. And you have to prove a contract, which in this case may be written (this is all being done through forum posts after all) but very loosely, and no one is signing anything.

Anyway, point being, yes, if the donee runs off with the money, you could bring an action against them - but don't hold your breath on seeing anything come of it, especially if the person is in another country and known to you only by a forum handle. Be smart, don't give your money away to people you don't really know.

[Veilan]

Anyway, point being, yes, if the donee runs off with the money, you could bring an action against them - but don't hold your breath on seeing anything come of it, especially if the person is in another country and known to you only by a forum handle. Be smart, don't give your money away to people you don't really know.

Well then it would be smart to require that the person acting as our liaison for purchases and accepting donations gives their personal data to the Admin; the data having to be confirmed first then?

[Mikayla]

Yes, that would be smart - but - as an Admin and a member, I really want no part of this donation scheme. If it works out well for ALFA, great, if not, I don't want anyone running to the remaining Admin crying for their money back and screaming that the Admin should have done something. This is definitely a case where folks are on their own - ALFA gurantees NOTHING, even if the Admin take down the personal information of the donee (which we are not likely going to be able to confirm anyway). But yes, if it makes folks feel better, we can have the donee provide the Admin with their personal information. Personally,while I certainly like the idea of knowing who I am dealing with, I think this provides only an illusion of security.

[NickD]

Yes, that would be smart - but - as an Admin and a member, I really want no part of this donation scheme.

Pity. Because you're bascially the only person I'd completely trust with donation money.

[Dorn]

*shrugs*

I'd give over 25 bucks without any guarentees.

I'd even give an extra 5 buck to someone else for a big hard drive to 'backup ALFA' in case person A did the dirty.


It's only 30 dollars....

......i spend well into the hundreds on big nights out on the weekend.

Although it may be a moot point as noone would want to do it. Some of those who everyone would trust probably wont want to, some of those who woudl do it may not be ultra-trustworthy (or have had episodes of ranting and taking things away from alfa beforehand so their stability is in question).

Are there even any viable and willing hosts?

[Veilan]

Well, just for the record, I would say that Cassiel is a member whom I'd also put up there on that trusthworthiness pedestal.

[MShady]

Just to blow some minds, how about Duck? Could this all truly be the end game of the conspiracy?

Structurally speaking, we may need an Admin position of Treasurer, by the way... As either a legal or practical requirement.

Mike

[Thangorn]

I probably shouldnt say this but someone was asking about proposal writing expertise somewhere earlier in this discussion.

I was a fundraising professional for 10 years running national fundraising projects for different organisations and eventually running my own business as a fundraising consultant.

I support fundraising for community infrastructure as long as we have appropriate community consultation for what we are going to spend the money on. I'm happy to assist with the development of any fundraising proposals in whatever capacity I can manage with my hectic RL schedule and NWN2 module building schedule.

To be effective in this community, my opinion is that donations be -:

1. anonymous
2. single payment, not recurring
3. not linked to any corporate interest
4. to an incorporated not-for-profit ALFA body
5. irreversible by any means

[White Warlock]

Oi, a volunteer for the project Zicada. *points up*

[zicada]

I probably shouldnt say this but someone was asking about proposal writing expertise somewhere earlier in this discussion.

I was a fundraising professional for 10 years running national fundraising projects for different organisations and eventually running my own business as a fundraising consultant.

I support fundraising for community infrastructure as long as we have appropriate community consultation for what we are going to spend the money on. I'm happy to assist with the development of any fundraising proposals in whatever capacity I can manage with my hectic RL schedule and NWN2 module building schedule.

To be effective in this community, my opinion is that donations be -:

1. anonymous
2. single payment, not recurring
3. not linked to any corporate interest
4. to an incorporated not-for-profit ALFA body
5. irreversible by any means

Cool, look me up on IRC so we can have a talk.

Thanks for stepping up.