Feature Specification: Rewards System

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:01 am

cipher - not checking the math right now, but I think that looks right for canon. issue is it breaks HARD when you start having grossly different levels. We can't use canon.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:03 am

Strictly sticking to the DMG method of distribution is unnecessary in our case as it wasn't designed with a PW CRPG in mind. The vast majority of PnP games involve characters within a few levels of each other, especially now that characters need the same amount of XP to level.

And even if there is a large variation in the levels, a PnP game played within a single group would be better served in getting that lower level character up closer to the level of the rest of the group.

With ALFA though, you can and do have 17th level characters and 5th level characters in the same party who meet up once and then never meet each other again. It is only reasonable for variantions of the rules to be established to account for our circumstances.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:31 am

Updated to include the current XP distribution algorithm.

NickD, you're exactly right. Didn't mean to suggest the canon algorithm was superior, just thought it was an interesting analysis.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Tue May 16, 2006 1:09 am

I'd like to change the name of this system to simply experience gain. I think the term "Diminishing Returns" is too limiting of a name for what ALFA may need of a system to catch XP gains. We should catch experience gains from all sources and pass them through a central script. Dimrets could be a subsystem of this, but I think ultimately everything needs to go through the same pipe.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Tue May 16, 2006 1:30 am

Sure...or just Experience if we want to be as broad as possible and redefine the XP tables entirely.

Did you have anything specific in mind?

Unlocked and re-stickied for discussion.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Tue May 16, 2006 3:41 am

If we are to tie wealth to level, we need to have a *returns* system, not just XP. I had a chance today to take a Clr4 through some gobbo caves - I'd say we looted 1,000 total value, but earned 3 XP. This was the second time I'd seen the cave, so DimRet hadn't even kicked in. While the potions, gems, and scrolls that dropped may have replaced what a party of PC2 had used up, we had no GP losses.

Whatever we have tracking XP/GP awards needs to account for party level vs area/spawn EL, and repeat statics. While Goblins don't turn into Ogre's just because you have a PC9 in the party, they should either flee or at least hide their valuables (i.e. the smart ones fled).

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:07 am

I didn't have anything specific in mind, I just wanted to stress the importance of having a system through which all experience gain is handed out, regardless of the source.

Fionn, does this sound like something you want to work on?

Baalster · Post by **Baalster** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:10 am

Diminishing return should also work on monsters (weaker monsters -> less XP -> less wealth). After a number of total wipe-outs, the DMs should consider removing the spawns for a while. Then maybe let something else take over the area. If the players doesn't want to...

We had this planned for a stronghold in Whitehorn...

B.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:56 pm

Well, we can create a EL system that calc's the number of hostile mobs of a particular faction onDeath of the spawn. Then use that value both for the loot table(s), number of hits on the loot tables, and XP. If we do this, we'd need to make sure individual mobs *don't* drop anything but junk (or stolen) equipment that cannot be sold for much.

Separately for the spawn system, we should have flags for static (mobs that can't be overhunted), diminishing (mobs that decrease their frequency chance based on how often they die), and dynamic (mobs that decrease if killed, but have a chance to spawn new spawnflags in nearby regions if left alone). For the latter to work, we really need spawn camps perfected - good news is that BW sounds like they have done this with bindable placeables :)

I can do the CR/EL -> XP function, and likely the onDeath -> EL functions. Do either of you know the equation for #/CR -> EL? I've seen plenty of calculators, but I'm not sure I've seen the actual equations for 3*CR1 + 1*CR3 = ??

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Wed May 17, 2006 1:31 am

FWIW, Diminishing Returns are intended to apply to both wealth and XP (as noted in the spec). Do the rates need to vary? Remember, they are percentages so assuming loot tables have been modified to standards along with XP, the rewards should remain in line with experience.

BTW Fionn, I don't think there is an equation for doing that conversion. All I know is that it's been a real headache for DMs when facing a wide range of CRs. Sorry, that wasn't really helpful but maybe you can keep things CR based and avoid the head trauma entirely.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Wed May 17, 2006 1:49 am

I would really prefer not to have DimRets on loot drops, thats rather OOC IMO. I'd even prefer not to have DimRets on XP either, at least initially (as thats really not an easy thing to do correctly). I'd much rather simply tamper off spawns as they are over-hunted as part of the spawn system (across resets as well). To me that seems like a far more elegant solution, and something we need to do anyways.

acr_wealth_i is the code which represents ALFA's wealth standards in the ACR. It does things like calculate the salable loot of a spawn, and how far above or below that places it on our wealth standards.

acr_xp_i could be the code which represents ALFA's XP standards.

acr_gp_rewards_i and acr_xp_rewards_i could be the implementation of these systems. They would auto-generate loot to bring the mob up to its recommended wealth, and hand out experience according to whatever standards we set for this. Of course, both scripts would take arguments from a number of sources aside from spawn drops, such as static quests and DM-given rewards.

Any comments, objections?

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:06 am

So as you visit a spawn point, the spawns decrease over time? What if another player triggers the spawns? Could be a perfect scenario for creature reputation to kick in and make all the spawns flee...

Definitely sounds more interesting.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:26 am

I'm thinking we probably need both systems unless we can be sure of *forcing* all builders to use the 'taper off'.

I know I've seen several servers (TPI included) up the ante as higher level player groups formed. I'm still getting rid of overpowered spawns (and loot drops) due to this. Left unchecked, across 10 servers, this provides infinite XP/GP unless *everybody* is farming the spawn.

I agree it's a meta solution, and I'd rather simply keep spawns realistic (i.e. dead after X spawn/week). If we can do this across the board, I'm all for it.

Perhaps wire it up to count, but simply log it. When we see Bob the Bard has killed the Ogre Chief (or Ogre Camp) for the 78th time, we may wish to make some adjustments to one or the other.

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BTW - I have a system set up using pChests in place of boss mob drops on TPI (I simply re-used the tag on a second chest in the DM room - takes 2 min to check every boss chest on the server). I'd seriously recommend using this instead of high end lootmerchants. There is no reason a group of Orc have a +1 sword every 2.3 hours. OTOH, if nobody has beat them for weeks, they likely have some nice swag. This sytem allows DMs to load up sensical magic gear as one-off drops.

If we wish, we can have a _BOSS tag check the local _BOSS chest for gear, and equip it if he can use it.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:11 pm

That's an interesting idea. What about making BOSS NPCs only spawn once? The spawn/dim ret/whatchamacallit system could pick this up from a local variable on the blueprint or even the tag. Their loot could then never be "harvested" by farming or by multiple visits and could be unique or reasonably interesting.

EDIT: Killing a BOSS NPC could also trigger a DM notification on the DM channel and could be logged for DM reference (used for activity review, tie into future plots or events, etc).

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Wed May 17, 2006 6:34 pm

Fionn wrote:I'm thinking we probably need both systems unless we can be sure of *forcing* all builders to use the 'taper off'.

Naturally tapering off would be the default behavior. I don't see why builders would deviate from this, but obviously if they actively try to drop too much loot we can't ultimately stop them in code.

That's an interesting idea. What about making BOSS NPCs only spawn once? The spawn/dim ret/whatchamacallit system could pick this up from a local variable on the blueprint or even the tag. Their loot could then never be "harvested" by farming or by multiple visits and could be unique or reasonably interesting.

EDIT: Killing a BOSS NPC could also trigger a DM notification on the DM channel and could be logged for DM reference (used for activity review, tie into future plots or events, etc).

I was actually thinking of a more flexible system whereby higher HD creatues in a spawn "group" (the definition of which is not clear to me at the moment) were rarer by default. So if one dies, chances are he won't spawn again.

I really don't think its any more difficult to tapper off spawns than it is loot, and one is meta and OOC. So I'm leaning towards spawns.