xp for rogues

[Keith Mac]

It just would not be fair to give exp for skill sets used by only one class...

I think the most important aspects of this thread is to realize that it is important to give at least one static that would be appealing to each class which uses a class skill set....(Preferably more than one)

Also that wealth limits are absurd and should be banished from NWN 2

I agree that the DM's should be handing out most of the XP for the skill conscious IG actions.......Quite a few of them should only be done with a dm around anyways....unless stealth becomes more realistic in NWN 2.

[Mulu]

It means statics need perhaps a little more thought, but that can only be a good thing compared to supplying a basic, combat-favouring "kill all the monsters, grab the loot" static.

And with no XP for random monster kills, you eliminate power-leveling byt the combat enabled. Level playing field for warmongers and pacifists.

I'm not really arguing with you Mayhem, I think it's a great vision. I just don't see it happening at that level. DM involvment is limited in ALFA, and group rp requires density or planning (and you still need something to do besides chat), which leaves 1. NPC scripted quests, 2. monster spawns, and 3. placeables like doors and chests for the rogues to mess with. NPC scripted quests require the most work of all, especially to make them IC repeatable or only doable once, and if you can only do it once then you don't get much bang for your buck (players quickly run out of things to do on that server). Right now you could finish every static in Waterdeep in a day of gaming, and then the server would be effectively "done" IC, except for group rp and DM involvment. Waterdeep has more statics than most servers, but they are effectively "do once" type quests, whereas DF and SD have IC repeatable patrols that you do in a group.

Now, you could make ALFA effectively DM-only, but you'd need tremendous DM coverage to pull it off and retain players. In the absence of that, the hostile and lootable world that is FR provides a lot of game time if built with detail and realism.

[Mulu]

It just would not be fair to give exp for skill sets used by only one class...

Right now we "unfairly" only give xp for combat. No system is going to be totally fair to all classes, but given the wealth limits this absence of xp for roguery causes an imbalance under our current system.

I think the most important aspects of this thread is to realize that it is important to give at least one static that would be appealing to each class which uses a class skill set....(Preferably more than one)

Statics only get you so far, unless they are randomized or IC repeatable.

Also that wealth limits are absurd and should be banished from NWN 2

Heh, no argument here. If it's ICly gained, well that's the game we play.

I agree that the DM's should be handing out most of the XP for the skill conscious IG actions.......Quite a few of them should only be done with a dm around anyways....unless stealth becomes more realistic in NWN 2.

The issue is chronic lack of DM's, otherwise I'd agree with you. I'd love for all of my online time in ALFA to be DM'ed.

Some of the most fun I ever had in NWN was playing in the rogue's guild on the Dragonspire server way back when. It was an intermittent world, meaning it was a campaign world rather than a traditional session based game, but it was only online two nights a week, with DM coverage the entire time. With typically a dozen players on and two DM's, you didn't get constant attention, but you got some attention every night, and the rest of the time you could plot and scheme, or explore areas as a group. Now *that's* the ideal way to play a rogue, in a rogue based group, with frequent DM attention every time you play. But that's not ALFA's model.

A persistent world needs persistent challenges.

[Mulu]

On another note, if it isn't already available, I think bards should be able to stand on a stage and "busk" the crowd by rp'ing a routine and then doing a perform check or bard song that gains them a few coins and xp, or boos and cat calls if they roll poorly.

[dergon darkhelm]

On another note, if it isn't already available, I think bards should be able to stand on a stage and "busk" the crowd by rp'ing a routine and then doing a perform check or bard song that gains them a few coins and xp, or boos and cat calls if they roll poorly.

Available!..........at least in WD it is.


On another PW I frequent, clerics of Ilmater are rewarded with exp for healing wounded NPCs................I like it.

Magic users are rewarded for sitting on their assess in a classroom studying (it's very slow and *boring*.just like real studying ) ......I like that too.

I generally like the idea of scripting awards for behaviors that are IC by class given the critical caveat that the rewards are balanced and fair.




I love to play rogues ..........in ALFA for NWN2 I will almost certainly start with some rogue and multiclass..... Yes, it's hard to earn exp "solo" as pretty much any noncombat class and I wouldn't mind a rebalancing a bit toward more scritpted exp for IC actions (whatever may be appropriate by character), but even it that doesn't happen it ain't gonna stop my from playing some sneaky bastard in NWN2!

[Dorn]

A "thief" character is completly in context for an FRPG, yet without DM intervention they can't gain any xp from playing their role, and DM intervention is extremely rare. I've been DM'ed in a rogue role exactly twice in ALFA, though I'm looking forward to more.

In my experience this isn't true with rogue doing very well and advnacing as fast as any fighter class would. Especially those with traps who end up totally pwning spawns by using them (IC RPed use i might add). Maybe our experiences just differ.

This problem only hits rogues who are actually played as thieves, as opposed to other professions with rogue skills. You can actually gain more wealth by killing things and taking their stuff, and get xp to boot while you're doing it, but a rogue thief build isn't going to be very good at that, and it isn't IC.

The thing is that rogues get enough skill poinits that even those who ARN"T playing 'thieves' often have maxed out trapping stats. So we are developing a system here to support one of many sub-classes of rogue, where in fact MOST rogues can take advantage of it.

Additionally, by killing things you engage dimrets so it ends up the same way....except that DMs ban you for rehitting the same spawn. Also the exp from spawns decrease as your level increases.

So we'd need a system that:
a) can detect the diffeence between a thief compared to an assasin with trap skills
b) employes dimret on each individual trap/lock so that the exp is reduced for several times disabling it (how do we do this for pick pocketting?)
c) a reduced level of exp depending on your level (i think someone put a formula together for it above)
d) a risk system for failure that may involve death (similar to a fighter engaging something in a battle...the risk/reward argument)


(plays devils advocate)
[/quote]

[Amar]

the originating post of this thread made me want to play a rogue.

[Mulu]

In my experience this isn't true with rogue doing very well and advnacing as fast as any fighter class would. Especially those with traps who end up totally pwning spawns by using them (IC RPed use i might add). Maybe our experiences just differ.

It depends on your build. I have a high intelligence, high charisma rogue, which obviously means I had to forego strength, constitution and even dexterity to some extent (couldn't max it). Now, I could probably engage in the kill things and take their stuff model if I really wanted to. She's a pretty good shot, and traps definitely help. It just isn't at all IC for her to do that.

So we'd need a system that:
a) can detect the diffeence between a thief compared to an assasin with trap skills

I have no idea how you would do that, and although I recognize that there would be an ability to "pop a level" of rogue and take advantage of xp from locks and traps, or take the picks in a different class, I think that would fall under the category of min/maxing and powergaming if done for the purpose of xp gains from locks and traps.

However, I also think that an IC thief can have a multiclass build, and given the 3e model of encouraging multiclassing I don't think this should be punished, in otherwords I don't know that I'd *want* to try to detect the difference between builds. My own build is rogue3/ranger2, and when in a group she rp's as essentially a scout/courier type. In fact, all of this thievery talk is extremely meta, my PC has never been caught engaging in any criminal act by a PC or NPC. In group play she acts as a scout and archer support, rarely loots bodies and rarely even asks for a share of the treasure. She participates with law enforcement, seeks out bounties, even volunteers for dangerous missions to help defend communites and preserve law and order. Sneaky, eh?

You have to allow for flexibility in character concept and roleplay. If that means some people can take advantage of an xp system designed for thieves, well so be it, no system is perfect. Extreme cases should be rule violations.

[Fionn]

Extreme cases are. OTOH, I'm not going to create a system that enables more 'grey area PGing' up to that extreme case.

I have one PC now planning no building a small Guild House. In it, there will be areas to RP practicing locks and traps. If he gets some followers, I'll likely even put in some statics for it. I'm not going to allow every PC with a rank of Open Lock (or Knock) to get XP for fiddling with locks anywhere on the server (though my Wizzy would certainly benifit).

[Mulu]

Extreme cases are. OTOH, I'm not going to create a system that enables more 'grey area PGing' up to that extreme case.

I have one PC now planning no building a small Guild House. In it, there will be areas to RP practicing locks and traps. If he gets some followers, I'll likely even put in some statics for it. I'm not going to allow every PC with a rank of Open Lock (or Knock) to get XP for fiddling with locks anywhere on the server (though my Wizzy would certainly benifit).

Well, I suppose guild quests would be a compromise, though I'd hate to see a good idea stymied by an assumption of a few bad apples, and what about unguilded rogues? They certainly exist.

Also, the xp proposal includes diminishing returns, non-repeatable locks, and a fairly low reward to begin with. The PG'ing option will always be to seek out the best return rate, which will always be combat.... Rogue xp is a pittance in comparison to that.

[Mulu]

d) a risk system for failure that may involve death (similar to a fighter engaging something in a battle...the risk/reward argument)

Hmm, you must not have ever played a thief in ALFA. Try breaking into a mansion in Waterdeep (it's not immoral to steal from the rich ) There are hostile guards everywhere, each one of which is more than a match for a 5th level rogue. One misstep, and you're dead. XP? Zero. (well, except the one that is a static).

[Fionn]

I know a couple rakes used to do those mansions. Unless the guards have gottten Potions of See Invisible, I'd say it's stacked in favor of the theif ;)

[fluffmonster]

wouldn't worry about the mansions. no more guards, and not really any loot either. They got smacked with the nerf bat hard.

[witch]

wouldn't worry about the mansions. no more guards, and not really any loot either. They got smacked with the nerf bat hard

Just deadly traps on chests with no loot

As to using traps as rogue to kill things. hmm well unless you have a high ranking in remove traps and find a place to steal/recover some traps its a costly excercise

a strong spike costs around 40-50 gold if you buy em.

Considering that it kills like an orc on an average day. and no orc drops 40+gold

its cheaper and healthier to sneak around it and leave it be.

fighter with a sword or cleric doesnt cost this one bit.

[Mayhem]

As to using traps as rogue to kill things. hmm well unless you have a high ranking in remove traps and find a place to steal/recover some traps its a costly excercise

a strong spike costs around 40-50 gold if you buy em.

Considering that it kills like an orc on an average day. and no orc drops 40+gold

There you go then - avoiding having more wealth than your level allows is simply a matter of liberally using traps to kill monsters.

That makes a lot more sense to me than the "we are too rich, so we need more XP" suggestions...