Rolling up a PC [pen and paper vs. NWN(2)]

[Mayhem]

I think you'll find its the D&D system combined with the high level of combat in ALFA that forces cookie-cutter characters.

When your PC has to come from a specific "class", and in order to actually be any use in that class has to have certain stats higher than others...

...well, it seems strange to blame the point buy system for the fact that all folks playing a character that wants to operate in melee wearing heavy armour will have a higher STR than they do INT.

[ç i p h é r]

If a player started on your server with an L1 PC with no stat enhancing gear but a row of perfectly legitamate straight 18s (without taking Race Mods into account), would you let him play them? And in what way is that row of straight 18s more "interesting" than the sort of stats you get with point buy?

Roll 18d6. Let me know when you achieve a legitimate roll of straight 18s.

What's the probability? 1/(6)^18?

We could always rule out sets with too many 18s or too many 1s.

I think you'll find its the D&D system combined with the high level of combat in ALFA that forces cookie-cutter characters.

Well, D&D system coupled with point buy. Thus is the dilemma with people building their own stats. There's just no perfect system.

[Mayhem]

If a player started on your server with an L1 PC with no stat enhancing gear but a row of perfectly legitamate straight 18s (without taking Race Mods into account), would you let him play them? And in what way is that row of straight 18s more "interesting" than the sort of stats you get with point buy?

Roll 18d6. Let me know when you achieve a legitimate roll of straight 18s.

What's the probability? 1/(6)^18?

We could always rule out sets with too many 18s or too many 1s.

So, your first reaction is to assume they cheated, and your second reaction is to say "well, let em roll, but if they roll too high, we don't let them use them?"

/tongue in cheek.

[Mayhem]

I think you'll find its the D&D system combined with the high level of combat in ALFA that forces cookie-cutter characters.

Well, D&D system coupled with point buy. Thus is the dilemma with people building their own stats. There's just no perfect system.

If you make them roll, they'll still put there best roll in STR and they're worst in INT or CHA. So what changes? The odd point here and there.

Unless you force a random roll for a specific stat, but in a game thats supposedly about choice, that would be sucktacular.

[ç i p h é r]

So, your first reaction is to assume they cheated, and your second reaction is to say "well, let em roll, but if they roll too high, we don't let them use them?"

No, I'm saying try and see how long it takes you to get straight 18s. It's extremely low probability especially if you only roll once per character. You're never going to have an opportunity to reroll until you hit the lottery. As a result, it's an extremely weak argument to use as a rebuttal.

If we use stats as the basis for character concept, then such an idividual would have a fairly substantial entitlement to a position of significance in the world. Son or daughter of a notable hero. Lord of a realm. Minor deity. Use your imagination.

If there's no place for such opportunities at ALFA, then yes, discard the roll. My PnP DM has done that a number of times for overpowered stats. There's nothing wrong or inappropriate with doing it and certainly PLENTY of precedent. It doesn't undermine, diminish, or discredit the die rolling method.

If you make them roll, they'll still put there best roll in STR and they're worst in INT or CHA. So what changes? The odd point here and there.

More than an odd point I'd say. You've got a range from 3 to 18. Just because you put low scores in secondary stats doesn't make them irrelevant. Your weaknesses will manifest through varied situations as well as through Role Play.

EDIT: Let me just conclude by saying we can probably debate forever. I'd rather see how things fare in a beta environment before drawing a final judgement. I'm sure our beta server DMs would appreciate the activity on their servers as well.

[Blenderhead]

Sorry, I have made a new post in the middle of it all, not very professional. I would appreciate if someone actually read it

And Go Cipher!!

[HEEGZ]

Sorry, I have made a new post in the middle of it all, not very professional. I would appreciate if someone actually read it

Well here you go : P

...We have the policy here in ALFA that our RP should reflect our stats for one, so this should create a minor difference. While this effect may not be that big, a serious weakness or some imbalance in your stats would force you to RP in a different way, perhaps even chose some feats you would not have chosen otherwise. This would create some much needed diversity to the PC's here and in my opinion diversity make characters more interesting, and thus enhances the roleplay. So to repeat myself, naturally this will have an effect, but the questions is: Will it make the RP better - the servers more fun?

I think there is more than enough diversity already. Forcing players to RP a certain way does not sound fun to me at all...

Due to human nature a point buy system really doesn't work, nobody wants a challenge, really. But once you're in the middle of it, you will probably like it more than something that is not challenging. I don't think we should underestimate the impact stats have on the RP.

I think you underestimate people. Lots of us enjoy a challenge. Some prefer to have no control over the challenges and prefer to play a gimped PC. I think whether a player chooses to RP their stats is highly variable and certainly not the norm... Class and bio. is RP'ed more than stats from my observation.

Another thing is the fairness: As it is now, the point buy system will benifit powergamers and not roleplayers, is that not true?

False. The point buy system is the most fair of all. Anyone PGing by min/maxing their stats should be censured or banned.

Then there is the argument that it would hurt the community and make players leave.

This is true. Anything making the community less fun or forcing players to RP a certain way will definitely cause this.

[snip]...personally I wouldn't mind playing a really bad PC with horrible stats, I don't know if it's got anything to do with maturity - but it could have

I have no idea how mature you are, your posts seem pretty level headed to me. While I admire your desire to RP a PC with horrible stats, implementing this as a mandatory thing for all PCs will never happen, or kill ALFA.

Hope that's what you were looking for.

[Blackwill]

So, your first reaction is to assume they cheated, and your second reaction is to say "well, let em roll, but if they roll too high, we don't let them use them?"

No, I'm saying try and see how long it takes you to get straight 18s. It's extremely low probability especially if you only roll once per character. You're never going to have an opportunity to reroll until you hit the lottery. As a result, it's an extremely weak argument to use as a rebuttal.

If we use stats as the basis for character concept, then such an idividual would have a fairly substantial entitlement to a position of significance in the world. Son or daughter of a notable hero. Lord of a realm. Minor deity. Use your imagination.

If there's no place for such opportunities at ALFA, then yes, discard the roll. My PnP DM has done that a number of times for overpowered stats. There's nothing wrong or inappropriate with doing it and certainly PLENTY of precedent. It doesn't undermine, diminish, or discredit the die rolling method.

If you make them roll, they'll still put there best roll in STR and they're worst in INT or CHA. So what changes? The odd point here and there.

More than an odd point I'd say. You've got a range from 3 to 18. Just because you put low scores in secondary stats doesn't make them irrelevant. Your weaknesses will manifest through varied situations as well as through Role Play.

EDIT: Let me just conclude by saying we can probably debate forever. I'd rather see how things fare in a beta environment before drawing a final judgement. I'm sure our beta server DMs would appreciate the activity on their servers as well.

Ditto.

Let's test it, if it doesn't take up too much time and see what happens.

[Spider Jones]

I'll always prefer rolling to point buy, and I don't really see this "balance factor", just cookie cutterism. Players shouldn't be in competition with each other about havin' the best stats, et cetera.

[HEEGZ]

[snip]
Let me just conclude by saying we can probably debate forever. I'd rather see how things fare in a beta environment before drawing a final judgement. I'm sure our beta server DMs would appreciate the activity on their servers as well.

Ditto.

Let's test it, if it doesn't take up too much time and see what happens.

Well if this gets implemented on a beta server I'm up for trying it. Would that get posted here or in a new thread?

[Mayhem]

Another thing is the fairness: As it is now, the point buy system will benifit powergamers and not roleplayers, is that not true?

That one I also take real issue with.

Just because somebody wants to choose the role that they play instead of being forced into it, does not make them a poor roleplayer.

[Blenderhead]

Wait a minute, Mayhem. I did not say that such players are bad roleplayers always, you're twisting my words. I said it will benifit powergamers, there is a big difference ... And besides, I never said that I actually identify with this position, it is just a question.

And HEEGZ, thanks for the answer. Exactly what I was looking for.

[Mayhem]

Then let me give you an answer to your "cui bono" question.

The point buy system benefits the roleplayer who spends hours writing up his character's background and personality before going near the character creation rules, since it ensures that he or she can then stat the character to match the character's history and concept.

Being forced to amend (or even completely revoke) that concept for completely random reasons does not magically make the player a better roleplayer.

[Blenderhead]

Most players in ALFA does not write a biography before character creation, do they?

And even if they did, it's easy to make a biography that will make the stats as efficient as possible.

But I see your points.

[Mayhem]

Most players in ALFA does not write a biography before character creation, do they?

I thought it was part of the application process, in fact. Meaning *all* players in ALFA do this at least once.

And even if they did, it's easy to make a biography that will make the stats as efficient as possible.

If you choose to. And if you choose not to , its also easy to make a biography that leaves your character flawed in some way.

See the word I emphasised there?

The random rolls elimate choice. Not only do they potentially remove the strengths I want my character to have, they also potentially remove the flaws I wanted him to have.

If I choose to play a strong young fool, but roll straight 12s all the way, according to the stats I am neither particularly strong not particularly foolish. In fact, I am 100% average.

That won't stop me from playing a heroic fighter or a perfectly good wizard, of course, but my original concept will have gone out of the window.

I suppose what I object to most in this whole thing is the basic underlying premise that somehow the fact I am being forced to use rolls other than those I would have chosen automatically makes my a roleplaying better, automatically makes my character more interesting, or, (god help us) means I'm somehow more "Mature" .

****

If you really want to hamstring the powergamers whilst emphasising roleplay, simply stomp down on anyone who isn't playing their stats. If the powergaming fighter has dumped INT and CHA, make sure you ding him every time he does something smarter than average or makes heroic inspiring speeches.

Use tells to remind the rest of the party that the guy making the eqloquent speech actually comes off as an arrogant jerk. Make sure the low WIS guy is acting as unwisely as his stats suggest.

If there is a dispute between players or player and NPC, make sure teh watch are more inclinde to believe the charming charismatic rogue than the oafish barbarian, no matter how clever the words that the barbarian's player types.

Of course, skill ranks should be taken into account too, but the basic premise stands. Don't let players get away with ignoring their PCs poor stats when convenient.