Combat & PC armor class

[AlmightyTDawg]

Cleric multiclass PCs should be watched pretty closely to make sure they stay IC to their bios and that the bio makes sense. However, there is no reason why a cleric can't tank almost as well as a Fighter, if they aren't min/maxed (ban) and are using a significant percentage of their divine magics to do so. They should either be supporting the group via healing, taking down monsters with direct damage spells or melee buffs, or tanking after buffs. I'm not wild about crazy multiclass combos, but some of them are mandatory from a RP perspective. For example, dwarven worshippers of Haela or Abbathor. A barbarian/cleric or rogue/cleric combo makes sense IC there. Having a level 9 rogue and taking a cleric level for the heals and no other reason is PGing and should be addressed. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why there is hostility towards the cleric? It is a class with staying power and a popular mix in class, but is it being abused that much in an OOC fashion? I guess I've not been around long enough to see it.

The difficulty I think was encapsulated pretty well with BalvinSlice. It's very difficult to characterize IC versus not, given that PCs learn from other PCs and from the situations they're presented with. I'm sure some of them in ALFA are just gamey. I'm sure quite a number people would think were gamey are legit.

The only non-partisan way to legislate that I know of is through base mechanics, and where we have hardcodes we can't get past, legislate and make it well known. An interrogation of a player for his reasons for class loadouts is tough as heck, and you can get people who disagree to the particulars of what makes a better or worse multiclass.

[HEEGZ]

Personally I think players should be given the benefit of the doubt unless they are obviously forgoing RP and going OOC with feats/gear/etc. I have no problems with a higher magic world, or even the higher ACs mentioned throughout this topic. Basically to me, if it is obtained IC from a DM, and the PC is RPing in an IC fashion, then all that is left is for a DM to run encounters that are appropriate to a PC/party of whatever level. High, low, evil, good, etc. I think if we can get a handle on item distribution (and maybe feat control?) and keep DM activity fairly constant, alot of these problems simply won't exist. Anyone running a min/maxed PC or multiclass of that type should be talked to, but in the end it all comes down to having fun in the FR on a PW.

Those drow fighters and rogues just can't break that 31 AC? Possess the cleric, hold person, flamestike, etc. The DM is ultimately responsible for how much of a challenge PCs encounter. They are twinked and skirting the wealth guideline due to excessive magic items? Maybe assassins follow them around. I've definitely noticed some of these DM behaviors at lower levels and love them. I just assumed it carried over into the higher levels too. Anyways, I'm loving this thread still. A great read. Oh, and +1 to what Dan said a few posts back.

I totally second a mundane only shopping experience in nwn2. Though I am also used to magical items up for sale, I think that by providing only mundanes in the front shop cases (un-possessed merchants) and magicals in the back rooms (possessed by dm merchants) makes it easier for dms to keep tabs on A. possible pgers B. possible wealth standard abuse while making the actual purchase of an item memorable to the player through appraise/persuade checks with the merchant. I think it a great idea to also keep track of abuses of magical items...

[Fionn]

Yeah, but *soloing* you'd be facing 5-8 opponents, many of which are flanking you. My own experience with expertise is that it tends to balance out, since your opponents live a lot longer and therefore they get in a lot more swings, unless you have friends. Throw in fatigue from combat and wearing heavy armor, and those long battles become very dangerous.

If you are soloing 5-8 opponents and don't run, you should be dead. A Ftr4 vs 5-8 CR1 goblins works out to EL 5-7 encounter! That should hurt a balanced party of PC4. If we have proper wealth drops for this EL, this leads to a low risk encounter with a high risk reward.... which leads to buffing mobs or nerfing rewards.... which in turn escallates to forcing PCs to have the uber kit or not adventure.

[dergon darkhelm]

If you are soloing 5-8 opponents and don't run, you should be dead. A Ftr4 vs 5-8 CR1 goblins works out to EL 5-7 encounter! .

Unfortunately, the CR/EL system is completely screwed, both in NWN *and* in PnP.

A 4th lvl ftr in a PnP (probably wearing full plate and using a large shield or the like) will tear the s**t out of 8 goblins CR1 if they are all "warrior types".

The CR/EL doesn't account for what is required to make it a challenge or not......a *balanced* encounter. One Shaman, one sorceror, a scout rogue for a ranged sneak attack flat footed and five warriors will do a good job harrassing said fighter. As a DM you can simulate this..........the game engine really has trouble doing it.

From my perspective the problem lies more in AI and spawn predictability than it does in AC/gear/ BAB etc.

[HEEGZ]

I think this is one of those catch 22s. You don't want to min/max or uber-twink, but then again you are on a HC server with permadeath and hours invested in back story. I think this is the main frustration for a lot of folks... How to handle a challenging encounter without losing everything, while staying IC, and not resorting to PGer tactics to do so. The only thing I can think of is for DMs to take it easier on (or more care with) the players. Let me give a quick example:

My PC normally has a 20ish AC depending on whether she has a shield equipped. While RPing in my home one night with another PC, we suddenly got attacked by a dozen rats and one uber-pimp-dire-rat-ring-leader-boss type. In this instance I actually felt safe enough in my house to wear my RP gear, with cloak. During the encounter my PC had an AC of 11 and the few HPs allocated to a level 2 PC. I won't bore you with the details, but I can't help but admit that I am much less likely to wear my RP gear unless I feel 100% safe (never) or am willing to risk the PCs life for sake of RP (not very often). My workaround is to try to buy armor/gear for RP appearance just as much as stats, and just wear my armor for RP purposes.

Seriously though, while it is entirely possible those rats had managed to burrow into my house under my enormous keg of ale, the encounter had me freaking out over the possibility my PC was about to die. It's one thing when I join a group of PCs going out on a quest and know my life might be on the line. However, attacks in a PCs house, etc. are the types of things that cummulatively might lead to players not going 100% IC. Honestly I can handle the death of my PCs, and have a half dozen new concepts ready to go at any given time, but I doubt alot of players are the same way.

Where to go with this? I think if we can address the compulsion to protect one's PCs from premature death, or prevent abuse of uber gear, some of these issues will be overcome. I think ultimately though the responsibility lies in the hands of all. The players not to PG/twink/min-max. The DMs not to abuse their power, and keep encounters at PC level (easier said than done). Builders and admin, etc. create the right atmosphere for roleplay where one doesn't have to worry about death at every turn or breaking some obscure rule. Having said all of that, I think the current system is not broken and works pretty well in context. I have been enjoying fabulous RP and great DM coverage for the most part and am totally happy with the ALFA servers as-is. Tweaking things from the way they are now can only make things better IMO.

Oh, and there was some follow up RP to the rat infestation above that was so hilarious (*simultaneous* <dwarven> Oh shyte, nae tha keg!1! ) that it would have been worth dying over. Not sure if my fellow player would agree with that, but I had a blast.

[Mulu]

I think this is one of those catch 22s. You don't want to min/max or uber-twink, but then again you are on a HC server with permadeath and hours invested in back story. I think this is the main frustration for a lot of folks...

It does give one pause. I play a combat-lite character, but I tend to remain stealthy. Still, having nearly gotten my PC killed in a single swipe by a bear recently, I wouldn't mind an AC boost.

And that's the real issue. You want your PC to survive, but once you have a tough PC you can take on more dangers. Those that do tend to die young, though, no matter how well built they are.

One way to make mobs a bit more random in their abilities is to have one shot items spawn on them, like totems of charm or whatever. You never know when that goblin warrior is going to throw choking dust at you, or that snake can cast confusion....

[Fionn]

The CR/EL doesn't account for what is required to make it a challenge or not......a *balanced* encounter. One Shaman, one sorceror, a scout rogue for a ranged sneak attack flat footed and five warriors will do a good job harrassing said fighter. As a DM you can simulate this..........the game engine really has trouble doing it.

From my perspective the problem lies more in AI and spawn predictability than it does in AC/gear/ BAB etc.

Thus my point. Don't twink the mobs for the high AC PC (thus killing anyone NOT high AC that ever fights them). Balance the encounters such that over-reliance on [immunity hits] will leave you holes. Boosting Goblins until they can hit AC24+ simply makes any *normal* PC that should be fighting them easy prey. If you also make the mistake of balancing out the loot for your uber gobbo's new CR, you make that Ftr4 doubly rich.

DimRet is one way to balance this. I'd rather see DimSpawns myself. After you've killed 10 Gobbo Chiefs, it is unlikely you'll see another Gobbo. It's possible that attrition will take care of what you missed, or that they will simply hide from you.

[Ronan]

Guys, this has nothing to do with lowering the AC of specific classes, though as pointed out, the rogues muticlasses may be hurt the worst by the lack of tumble AC. It has to do with lowering the AC of all classes so that the mobs described in canon can be a challenge without builders jacking them up to all hell (as is currently done many places). This has nothing to do with farming, mob AI, or anything like that.

It has everything to do with one of two choices: Curbing PC power to be in-line what is expected of adventurers in Faerun, or (as is currently done some places, but not others) raising the power-levels of non-PC creatures (mobs and otherwise) to offer a challenge to PCs. The former should be easier on PCs if ALFA as a whole sticks more to canon mobs: The PCs will know more of what to expect!

Those drow fighters and rogues just can't break that 31 AC? Possess the cleric, hold person, flamestike, etc. The DM is ultimately responsible for how much of a challenge PCs encounter. They are twinked and skirting the wealth guideline due to excessive magic items? Maybe assassins follow them around. I've definitely noticed some of these DM behaviors at lower levels and love them. I just assumed it carried over into the higher levels too. Anyways, I'm loving this thread still. A great read. Oh, and +1 to what Dan said a few posts back.

As a DM that refuses to alter the setting to challenge overpowered PCs, sometimes there isn't a cleric or mage available. Spell casters are rare compared to grunts in Faerun, enough so that ones of significant level (certainly any capable of casting flamestrike) cannot simply be used on passive whims. In addition, save-or-die spells like hold-person can be are not the sort of things which are usually fun for the players.

[Dorn]

I have the solution! And it's not extreme at all!!!

1) DMs make sure people are playing IC and acting out the parts their classes must. Clerics are worshippers of a god and protector of his/her values and flocks souls first, fighter second. So should be played that way. DMs should remind them of this when they just become buffermatics.

2) Characters should ask for equipment IC. None of this 'Hi i have the money so want boots with +2 dext, +8MS and +5 tumble'...(yes i've seen it). More, 'do you have boots which will make my feet walk like an elf' with the DM then deciding whats appropriate.

3) Use tokens for loot from static spawns. Most of the time DMs SHOULD be there so can give you loot from non-static spawns...if you go and find and hit a big one then i'm sure waiting maybe 1 RL day isn't THAT bitg a thing. I mean how often do we hit these major static spawns? Very rarely i'd imagine. Then the DM makes a judgement on what you get (hello cursed armour you dont' realise about until you just sold your other stuff...)

4) DMs look at the wealth limits and think common sense. If you have rogues and clerics and so on with their 'wondrous' abilities maxing out, then tjhey do something about it. If they have monks, ftrs, barbs, bards at the low end of it then their rewards maybe get a bit higher. There is a range of wealth allowed...if there are fundamental unbalanced issues then this range could be used no? I'm not talking about defining sub-limits for each class. JUst a littel common sense in giving items as rewards or for payments for the cleric and rogue/ranger combos.

[JspecWip]

It has everything to do with one of two choices: Curbing PC power to be in-line what is expected of adventurers in Faerun, or (as is currently done some places, but not others) raising the power-levels of non-PC creatures (mobs and otherwise) to offer a challenge to PCs. The former should be easier on PCs if ALFA as a whole sticks more to canon mobs: The PCs will know more of what to expect!

I'm all for cannon standards, I think all mobs included in base mod should only be the base creature from the monter manual/DM guide. This means that all other special NpC mobs would be erfs, to be loaded and dropped only by a dm. This should be a hard rule with no exceptions across every server.

This would eliminate the need to make the crazy twink builds for character survival, thus those that do can be called out for PGing.

Add in one of those things Fionn mentioned, hopefully something that will make mobs runaway/disapear if they are faced with bad odds then it controls people farming.

I would add though, why worry about loot drops and farming, punish those that do it and don't ruin it for the rest by nerfing the systems.

[Fionn]

I would add though, why worry about loot drops and farming, punish those that do it and don't ruin it for the rest by nerfing the systems.

"It" is a wide grey area. Killing all the Orcs in the Eastern Valley is totally IC if your name is Grumash Orcbane. Doing it 20 times a day is obviously over the line (IMO). Some will say once a month, some will say once a day... this limit will vary DM to DM, so you can't simply ban anyone that steps over sucha an arbitrary limit.

We need to control this via the basemod/scripts/Standards for building. If a player physically *can* farm, there are ways to make it IC. It becomes a question not *if* they are farming, but if they are farming under the allowed max. Obviously, some will abuse *any* system, and we should smack them for it, but by and large we should make them overtly work to abuse it. A PC named "[___these spaces reserved for previous bic names___]Grumash Orcbane" ought to raise some eyebrowse the 3rd time you see him kill the same named NPC Orc chief ;)

[JspecWip]

Would that mean that because I make a Pc who Ic would kill/maim/rob everyone he comes in contact with it would be ok?

Just because you can make it Ic doesn't mean that it should be allowed to be made IC. What happend to Rp standards.....


Please o'coding gods implement extinction scripts....

[Dorn]

Fionn, 'wandering monsters' solves that somewhat.

And again, no automatic respawns of static spawns (ie DM triggers them to make sure the local spawn hasn't been pwned constantly), dimret, and tokens as rewards for major spawns (ie DMs not going to give loads of gold to the same guys every time) also means farming is meaningless. They can still go and do it as it is 'IC'...but they do not power level as a result.

On the other hand maybe if we have a good database farmers will be obvious and DMs can pull them up on it without inconveniencing others.

And on the third hand (;) ) this is getting off topic.....sorry *shuts up*

[Mulu]

I'm really going off the simple presumption that if it's a) non-canon and b) produces an undesireable result, it's gotta go.

And I'm going off the simple presumption that you should only make those changes that are necessary, because with every change you make you increase the learning curve for playing in ALFA and you create the possibility of unintended consequences, like the aforementioned hit to light armor users if Tumble AC is eliminated.

An easier way to deal with the Tumble exploit is to call it what it is, an exploit. If you are a heavy armor using character, you can't take picks in tumble without incurring a ban for min/maxing. Sometimes rules can take the place of coding, especially when dealing with hardcoded issues.

[AlmightyTDawg]

I'm really going off the simple presumption that if it's a) non-canon and b) produces an undesireable result, it's gotta go.

And I'm going off the simple presumption that you should only make those changes that are necessary, because with every change you make you increase the learning curve for playing in ALFA and you create the possibility of unintended consequences, like the aforementioned hit to light armor users if Tumble AC is eliminated.

I play a light armor user with Tumble AC. It's not really an unintended consequence . Light armor users typically have lower ACs, and it isn't necessarily from the armor slot, where a dex build/buffs can bring the AC + Dex Bonus to pretty near even terms (+9 for full plate, +8 for Leather or Chain Shirt, +7 for Studded or Chain Mail) and a Small Shield with plus combo is another point off a fighter build. The only knock really is not having a buckler for the non-shield-featers. Bear in mind we're talking about hitting this from multiple directions at once - the tower shield for the fighter/cleric/tank mold, tumble for the monks, rogues, and multiclasses, and it ends up being in reasonably similar numbers. Small tweaks to base classes, the people who'd get hit hardest are the inane multiclass combos trying to game things.

But because Tumble doesn't include the fighting defense or total defense options, I think some AC boost is worthwhile. I just think it should be topped out earlier.

I guess I have a hard time seeing "learning curve" as a justfication for wild imbalance. Maybe it matters more to other people, and we could certainly change around expertise and improved expertise to have BAB requirements preventing them from being acquired at the low levels - seeing as they're not really part of a feat tree.

An easier way to deal with the Tumble exploit is to call it what it is, an exploit. If you are a heavy armor using character, you can't take picks in tumble without incurring a ban for min/maxing. Sometimes rules can take the place of coding, especially when dealing with hardcoded issues.

It's tough to call it an exploit, because it's not just heavy or medium armor that limits it. Encumberance (of which NWN runs a decidedly weaker model), nor do we have the fight-defensively alternates to make it a better ability. Or what about my character who's basically a leather-wearing scout, but who can strap on the plate if you suddenly need a tank? As it is, by and large, I'd leave Tumble as it is, though might look for a way to top out the AC improvement at +1 at 5 ranks, or maybe even at 10 ranks.