Feature Specification: Weapon Breakage & Armor Damage

[ç i p h é r]

Weapon Breakage & Armor Damage
The weapon breakage and armor damage requirements are detailed below.

For a short explanation of the feature specification format, visit:
http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=27229

Functional Requirements

Weapon Breakage
With each successful hit, a weapon will endure a small amount of wear and tear that adds up over time depending on the hardness of the material used in its construction. The harder the material, the less damage the weapon will endure. If the damage to a weapon sustained over time exceeds the hit points of the material used, the weapon will break and can no longer be used. Critical hits scored with a weapon will introduce a 1% chance of breaking the weapon outright. Wear and tear damage caused to a weapon over time or breakages can be repaired by a blacksmith.

(limit wear and tear to mundane weapons?)
(give magical items additional hit points?)
(damage penalty with wear and tear?)

Armor Damage
Critical hits scored on the player will introduce a 10% chance of visibly altering the appearance of the armor they are wearing. Armor affected by a critical hit will "downgrade" the appearance of one of its parts at random without altering Armor Class. Damaged armor can be restored by a blacksmith.

NWN Object Dependencies
TBD

Local Variables and External Configs
TBD

Logging and Debugging (global LOG & DEBUG (on/off) constants)
TBD

Persistence Requirements
Weapon Wear and Tear, Armor Damage

Event Dependencies
OnDamaged, OnPlayerEquipItem

[ç i p h é r]

How about a nice contentious topic to inspire contribution from the community?

Just getting the discussion started here. Please keep in mind that this has absolutely NO bearing on whether or not such a system, if developed, will be used in ALFA. That is a matter of policy and up to ALFA Admin.

I've noted a few ideas under "weapon breakage" we can explore.

Discussion welcome.

[Creslyn]

Critical hits scored with a weapon will introduce a 1% chance of breaking the weapon outright.

Remove that and it looks like a decent start. A critical hit is less likely to see a chance of breaking the weapon than not, as it generally implies you've hit a vulnerable point, a chink in the armor, an eye, something of that kind.

[Dorn]

I love the idea of weapon damage.

If there is a way to see how 'degraded' your weapon/armour has become so you can take it to a smith etc then that woudl be grand.

I also like random weapon breakage as well. Gives a bonus to fighters etc who can carry additional weapons due to their strength. Although i'm in a minority i think . I like the % chance on crit...but i agree it's inconsistant. While it might apply to slashing/bludgeoning weapons (ie an almighty hit jars weapon on bone), it wouldn't really to piercing weapons.

And i disagree that magical weapons are immune to weapons damage. It's not like every sword with an enchantment on it is amazingly made. It might just be a crap or average sword where a nutter of a mage cast something on it. So it's susceptible to breakage as much as anything else.

Of course this introduces the need for comparative valuation of weapons (ie low, med and high quality).

[PensivesWetness]

I love the idea of weapon damage.

If there is a way to see how 'degraded' your weapon/armour has become so you can take it to a smith etc then that woudl be grand.

I also like random weapon breakage as well. Gives a bonus to fighters etc who can carry additional weapons due to their strength. Although i'm in a minority i think . I like the % chance on crit...but i agree it's inconsistant. While it might apply to slashing/bludgeoning weapons (ie an almighty hit jars weapon on bone), it wouldn't really to piercing weapons.

And i disagree that magical weapons are immune to weapons damage. It's not like every sword with an enchantment on it is amazingly made. It might just be a crap or average sword where a nutter of a mage cast something on it. So it's susceptible to breakage as much as anything else.

Of course this introduces the need for comparative valuation of weapons (ie low, med and high quality).

having played DDO a little.... hehe.... since it came out a week ago, one possible example to handling durability is DDO's system. certain the visuals of it, when you examine the item at least seem very user friendly....

[AlmightyTDawg]

And i disagree that magical weapons are immune to weapons damage. It's not like every sword with an enchantment on it is amazingly made. It might just be a crap or average sword where a nutter of a mage cast something on it. So it's susceptible to breakage as much as anything else.

By definition all magical weapons are masterwork weapons. Now that doesn't mean they have infinite hardness, they can still be sundered or break or that sort of thing. But by comparison with any similar items of the same material, it should be as high a quality as possible for that material.

I like the /concept/ of weapon breakage/degradation, but personally not sure it adds a heck of a lot to the party. It's also highly location-dependent as to its effect. For example, when I started in ALFA, they had weapon breakage scripts. I bought my first MW weapon, a +1 mighty bow, and after a short time it broke. I bought follow up weapons - first a longbow, then that broke. Then my rapier broke, so I got another. Then that broke too, so I was down to a short sword. I was breaking weapons faster than I could replace them given the economics of the zone I was in. For that location, it was a god awful choice.

Something else to consider here is the possibility for excessively undervalued combat by some play styles. The idea of a "random percent on X" variable will of course be scaled to the relative emphasis on combat for a given builder or DM.

Unless there's a good Sunder interface, I doubt that there's going to be a strong canon way of doing this. In terms of random weapon breakage, I'd personally be very hesitant to make it anything remotely frequent, which to my mind would back off the crit "outright" chance by at least a factor of 3, if not 10. Then you have to have an interface for healing, regeneration (see living metal, MoF), and other effects.

In the end, I think this is one of those things which might come into play for realism, but is easily expendable if it turns out to not be "fun." Figure if it doesn't even rate in the PHB, it might be too much drudge for even the hardcore crowd.

[ç i p h é r]

Yes, the idea of critical breakage is entirely inconsistent with the PHB definition of critical hits but as there is no way to factor in an exceptionally bad hit, it seemed about the right *rate* at which an event like that could occur. From a CvC point of view, it also adds a bit of suspense by offsetting what is otherwise simply a powerful blow to the defender and hopefully gives the defender a sliver of time to react to that blow if the weapon breaks with it. I can change the language to "Critical MISS" if it's more palatable; the percentages are clearly lower this way (always 1 out of 20 regardless of critical range).

Does that alter opinions at all? Would you be less concerned if we drop the % chance to 0.5% (1 out of 200) or less (1 out of 1000) Cres? The lowest we can go is 1 out of 65,534, which I believe is the integer limit, but remember, this is a percentage chance of a percentage chance (only applies to critical hits, not all hits). The worst case probability of breakage at the 1% rate would be 1/(10 * 100) = .1%, where 10 is the best crit range achievable statistically. I can of course strike it completely.

You're right too ATD in that weapon breakage can be out of sync with the economics of a specific locale and become a significant hardship to players. I tossed up the notion of applying a damage penalty as a weapon degrades - it could be a substititute for breakage entirely. So while you don't have to worry about breaking a weapon, not keeping your gear well maintained means you don't deal optimal damage. Is that an idea worth considering?

If we do stick with breakage, it's imperative that this isn't a *common* event. We can probably manage that by determining a suitable damage accrual rate, but bear in mind too that this will introduce a use/value for special materials that wouldn't have been present before. Harder weapons will last longer and might be worth the investment. Furthermore, if the damage is repairable as well as "observable" (ie your weapon looks like it could break at any time now), that might have helped mitigate the situation you found yourself in.

What accrual rate seems reasonable (damage per hit)?

[Fionn]

If you tie breakage to the combat roll (vs durability), I'd give it an equal chance of breaking or disarming on a 1/20. You also need to factor in a saving throw vs breakage per 'plus' (not effective plus) of the weapon.

[ç i p h é r]

Both good ideas. The latter sounds like the sunder rules. What's the save DC?

[Creslyn]

You need to tie weapons maintenance in with any form of weapon degredation. Warriors who use their gear a lot tend to take very good care of it, as their life depends on it.

[Fionn]

We could save a lot of room by simply having a counter on the *PC*. PCs don't often change out their weapons, so if they never visit a blacksmith (or use a whetstone, whatever), they get a progressively higher chance of breakage. Every hit is a count, every use of whetstone is a decount. 0.01% chance plus the number of counts (or logarithmic, whatever).

This doesn't work if they have a prized sword they keep excellent care of, and a daily use sword they expect to break.

[NickD]

Weapon breakage is the biggest pain in the arse ever. At worst I'd say if the weapon "breaks" give it a temporary damage penalty until repaired by a blacksmith rather than destroy it outright and require a DM to get it back, and have magical weapons either immune or a lot more resistant.

But ultimately it's too much into the realm of micro management, and if we go down that track we may as well introduce forced rest (players get tired and suffer penalties if they've been awake for too long), hunger and toilet break scripts.

[AlmightyTDawg]

You're right too ATD in that weapon breakage can be out of sync with the economics of a specific locale and become a significant hardship to players. I tossed up the notion of applying a damage penalty as a weapon degrades - it could be a substititute for breakage entirely. So while you don't have to worry about breaking a weapon, not keeping your gear well maintained means you don't deal optimal damage. Is that an idea worth considering?

It all comes down to how hardcore you want to be. If you don't eat frequently enough, or take time for potty breaks, you'll also fight ineffectively. I don't believe that's ever been a compelling reason to add them to the engine.

I mean, what are we talking about here? A time suck, a money suck, a weight addition (carrying around a strop, whetstone, etc), a resource-limited condition, or some combination? Will it require people having Craft Weapon/Armor as a skill to maintain and punish people without those?

I think realism has to take something of a back seat to overall play environment here. We've already chosen places where we keep it - travel (and even that is kind of soft), actually accomplishing things in engine instead of just doing it by fiat, and other such technicalities. There's a whole realm of minutiae we can add in that could conceptually turn the game into WoW. However, instead of grinding for loot, we're talking about grinding just to not have penalties, which is somehow more odious.

D&D took care of maintenance or the long-term things by handwaving, and focused on the more critical path of Sunder/weapon breakage. While taken in isolation, adding weapon/armor maintenance to the scheme wouldn't turn it to a drudgefest, the overall philosophy justifying it would. I'd like to get a clear explanation of what it brings to the party measured against what we're talking about for input time.

[Creslyn]

I think TDawg has stated the question accurately and concisely. Who are you and what have you done with him?

[Joos]

Weaponbreakage, if not done properly, ala DMG 3.5, easily graspable while ingame, ala Diablo 2, is just a pain in the ass and should be ditched sooner rather than later. *remembers the crap system we used to have (that seems to be in effect still on TLR)*