"The Religion thread" Part II

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"The Religion thread" Part II

Post by Vaelahr »

Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:
Thousands of people do not die for what they know to be a lie.


Only a handful would have known it was a lie, perhaps only one, the guy who made up the story in the first place.
Again, how did this handful of folks or this guy steal the body? And why? Again, there's no credible answer. The only reasonable explanation for the missing body is that the disciples stole it. But is this plausible? These are the same men who scattered when Jesus was arrested. They were cowardly. They were disillusioned and depressed. And they would need to overpower the Roman guards. It is not likely that they would have had the courage or motivation to carry out such a plan. Why would they steal it? Possibly they wanted to start a new religion, to gain fame and fortune. This is possible but not likely as we've seen in previous posts. The disciples would have put themselves in great risk to steal the body. The Jews and Romans both wanted this disruption stopped, had they believed that the disciples stole the body they would have dragged them into prison and beaten them until they confessed and produced the body. No such thing happened.
Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:Furthermore, there was no motive for such a lie. Lies are always told for some selfish advantage. What advantage did the "conspirators" derive from their "lie" ? They were scorned, imprisoned, enslaved, tortured, exiled, crucified, boiled alive, burned alive, beheaded, disemboweled, and/or fed to lions in the Colosseum.....hardly a list of perks.


You could say the same thing about Al Qaida, the insurgents in Iraq, etc. Their members have faced tremendous adversity. Being willing to die for a belief does not make that belief truthful.
The early Christians rested their belief not only on the fact of the empty tomb, but on the fact that they themselves had seen Jesus alive after his burial. He was seen not once or twice, but at least ten recorded times; and not just one at a time, but in groups of two, seven, ten, eleven, and five hundred. How their lives changed after they had seen the risen Jesus is another mark of the story's truthfulness. The disciples became the forerunners of a new movement that swept the world. They spoke out for the message. They were persecuted for the message and they ultimately gave their lives for this message: Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Reliable historical sources tell us that all twelve of the disciples except John died as martyrs. Peter was crucified in Rome. Paul was beheaded. And James was stoned to death, to name a few. This is of crucial importance. If they had pulled off a hoax, why would they go to their graves proclaiming that it actually happened. Certainly, many have died for a lie. Nazis gave their lives for what was false. Plenty of other religious followers die and have died for their faith, but the crucial point here is that the disciples would have known it was a lie, if they had stolen the body or made up the story. They all would have died for what they knew was a lie. Is it plausible to believe that not one of them, under the threat of death would have admitted, "we made the whole thing up?" What they saw changed their lives. They believed they had seen Jesus Christ rise from the dead.

And because of what they believed they saw, these men who were meek suddenly became powerful spokesmen for Jesus Christ. Peter who denied Christ a few weeks earlier preached to over three thousand people in the second chapter of the Acts of the Apostles. The resurrection was not a later addition to the Christian faith, but the very cause and incentive for it. They rested their faith, not on historical records, but on what they had seen with their own eyes. The records were the result of their faith, not the cause of it. Christianity hinges on the historical fact of Christ’s resurrection, for without it the entire faith is found fraudulent. Had there been no resurrection, there would have been no New Testament, and no Christianity.

So not only were they now bold spokesmen, but of a fundamentally different religion than Judaism. For a Jew of the first century to change his religion or preach some heretical doctrine would be to risk eternal damnation. For us today, we're not surprised by new cults, but this kind of hoax is almost unthinkable in first century Judaism whose culture and beliefs changed slowly. They were convinced that what they saw and experienced was true.

If the empty tomb and resurrection was a fabrication, why did not at least one of the many disciples break away from the rest and reveal the claim as a lie? The Temple authorities were willing to pay good money to anyone who would provide such information. Or if money was not alluring enough, what about the possibility of proving the resurrection a lie in order to draw disciples away to follow some enterprising would-be cult leader? History has shown that this role is a popular one, and this would have been a golden opportunity. Without the strong and persuasive evidence of the resurrection, the continued unity of the early Christian leaders is inexplicable in light of the human tendency to want to promote oneself. The assumption that they were all committed to the truth of their message is the only adequate explanation of their continued unity and the lack of any revelation of fraud. Those who lie for personal gain do not stick together very long, especially when hardship decreases the benefits.

Because of the strength of the evidence that something did happen that changed the disciples' lives, some critics have suggested the idea that what they saw was an hallucination. There are two problems with this theory: it doesn't match what we know of the account and it doesn't match what we know of the psychology of hallucinations. The idea of mass hallucinations has been disproven in modern psychology. If you hold that what the disciples saw was an hallucination, then you must acknowledge that they experienced this hallucination in groups of three, four, twelve, and even five hundred people. Moreover, the hallucination theory does not fit what we know of the disciples' expectations. As I have said earlier, the disciples were not expecting Christ to rise from the dead. They had no concept in Judaism of the Messiah rising physically from the dead with the same body, a body they could touch and interact with. Nor do the descriptions given in the gospels reflect the kind of vagueness that makes up an hallucination. What they experienced was concrete. They could recall and explain it clearly. And because many of them experienced the same thing, separately and together, they could confirm their experiences with each other. The hallucination theory also fails to explain one other fact: the empty tomb. Had the disciples, and many others, hallucinated Jesus' appearances, the commotion they were causing in Jerusalem could have been easily stopped by producing the body. This is an argument from silence. In other words, there is nothing said in history about whether the Romans and Jews tried to produce Jesus' body. But it is crucial in this case that there is nothing said in recorded history about what happened to Jesus' body other than what we find in the gospels. Had Jesus' body been exhumed by the Jews or Romans and presented to the mass of people who were deluded about his resurrection, it is hard to believe that the early church could have gotten started. But the movement did start and the resurrection of Jesus was the grounds on which it began.
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Post by Vaelahr »

Mulu wrote:Where does this idea of a creator god come from? Not from Jesus certainly, his religion is a plagiarism......A *lot* of Christianity sounds like the fantasy mysticism of the Dionysus and Mithras cults, as well as Zoroastrianism.
What evidence do you present? How do you assert early Christianity is some kind of plagiarism?
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Post by mxlm »

What evidence do you present? How do you assert early Christianity is some kind of plagiarism?
Didn't we go over this in the other thread?
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

A *lot* of Christianity sounds like the fantasy mysticism of the Dionysus and Mithras cults,
No interest in this debate but I do see this connection to Mithras mentioned a lot and would just like to point out that we have no idea what the worship or beliefs of the Roman Mithras Cult actually entailed so any comparisons to Christianity, or in fact any other belief system, is nothing more than conjecture. We just have no documentation or any real evidence of what the religion actually involved, at least as far as the Roman Mithras cult is concerned, the Zoraster Mithras is better understood, but the actual belief systems of the Roman version is largely unknown because of a complete lack of any textual evidence.

Again no bearing on the discussion but just figuired I'd mention it.

Edit: Plagarism is the wrong term, rather it would be more accurate to say like all belief systems it evolved and borrowed from other earlier and neighboring belief systems. No idea is born in a vacuum. Well no idea since the earliest days of prehistory when everything was more or less new.
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Re: "The Religion thread" Part II

Post by Mulu »

This whole Christian reality debate can be put to death quite easily: There is no credible evidence that Jesus even existed. In the absence of credible evidence that he existed, everything that he allegedly did is simply a story. That story has elements that are plausible, elements that are implausible, and elements that are obviously gross myth, but it really doesn't matter since odds are even the plausible parts are fictitious, as odds are the person never existed.

But, just for kicks....
Vaelahr wrote:
Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:
Thousands of people do not die for what they know to be a lie.


Only a handful would have known it was a lie, perhaps only one, the guy who made up the story in the first place.
Again, how did this handful of folks or this guy steal the body?
I've already answered this question. 10 pieces of silver would do the trick quite nicely. Perhaps that's why the guards ran away, they got enough money to move somewhere else. Or maybe the disciples made terrorist threats against them and their families, which caused them to run away. It's not like it's impossible to remove a corpse from a crypt, even one that's allegedly guarded.

Remember also, *everything* about this story is suspect. There is no evidence the tomb of Jesus was guarded at all. There is no evidence he was buried in the first place. There is no evidence he even existed.

More to the point, the fact remains that only a handful at most would know about it even if it did occur. Those "thousands" of martyrs died in ignorance of the falsehood of their beliefs.
Vaelahr wrote:And why? Again, there's no credible answer.
Do you simply not read what I post? A streambed in Texas tells you everthing you need to know about religious people and their willingness to lie to support their beliefs. It's true now and it was true then.

Or, look at the Koreshians. They came up with all sorts of nonsense. If *they* believe it all, does that make it true? Your arguments could be used to *prove* the truth of any religion, since it boils down to, "they believed it, and had no reason to lie about it." Of course, they had many reasons to lie about it, the exact same reasons that every other cultist has. What those reason are I don't fully understand, since I'm not religious. Why do religious people lie to themselves and others? Why do they claim to see angels and other miracles? Why are some people particularly weak minded and easily sucked into delusional notions? Is it brain anatomy, chemistry? I have no idea, but they do it, and I'm sure the first Christians did it too.

Cult deprogramming takes a lot of work, because those people absolutely believe in the claims of their cults, just like you.
Vaelahr wrote:The only reasonable explanation for the missing body is that the disciples stole it. But is this plausible? These are the same men who scattered when Jesus was arrested. They were cowardly.
According to who? All of their alleged actions are again just a story, one that could be crafted to show whatever the author intended. See, your fatal flaw here is that you believe the gospels without any corroborating evidence. That's a fallacy. It's also faith, but faith doesn't win debates, faith just shows you are unwilling to use reason or weigh evidence rationally. You need to give up this fantasy that you can prove anything written in the Bible without corroborating evidence. And, no, other things written in the Bible or written later by other Christian writers are not corroborating evidence.
Vaelahr wrote:The Jews and Romans both wanted this disruption stopped
This is fallacy #2. If he existed at all, Jesus was trivial in his lifetime. His cult was one of many such cults. As far as the Romans were concerned, he was just another clueless Jew executed for the crime of sedition, one of hundreds of thousands. To the Jews, he was one of dozens of cult leaders promising deliverance from Roman occupation through yahweh. He wasn't that important. He was just important enough to kill, which in that time and place didn't take much. Remember, the story of his execution has no corroborating evidence either, and the writers of the Bible would have every reason to make it into a Big Deal, but in reality another seditious wanna be messiah wouldn't even make the news of the day, much less of the year. To those in power, he would have been a common street preacher, nothing more. A cockroach. Certainly not deserving of the level of conspiracy and persecution that you and the Bible claim. I doubt most local Roman authorities would have even known his name.

It wasn't until decades after his death that the cult started to gain enough momentum to be noticed by the Roman authorities.
Vaelahr wrote:The early Christians rested their belief not only on the fact of the empty tomb, but on the fact that they themselves had seen Jesus alive after his burial.
According to myth. It's just a story, kiddo, one with absolutely no corroborating evidence. That gets you summarily dismissed in court.
Vaelahr wrote: He was seen not once or twice, but at least ten recorded times; and not just one at a time, but in groups of two, seven, ten, eleven, and five hundred.
A thousand! A million! Why, every person on Earth felt his presence and quaked!

It's a myth. No biblical claims of hundreds of witnesses will ever make it anything more than a myth.
Vaelahr wrote:How their lives changed after they had seen the risen Jesus is another mark of the story's truthfulness. The disciples became the forerunners of a new movement that swept the world.
Yes, I'm sure Mohommed is the true prophet because his disciples became the forerunners of a new movement that swept the world. Oh, you were talking about Christianity? *shrugs*
Vaelahr wrote:If they had pulled off a hoax, why would they go to their graves proclaiming that it actually happened.
Because they believed their own lie, just like all other cultists. Nothing mysterious about that. I guess since the Koreshians died for their faith, David Koresh really was the second coming of Jesus. Who knew?
Last edited by Mulu on Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mulu »

As for Mithras v Christianity, after looking it up it appears the issue is clouded at best. Nevertheless, Christianity has *many* attributes of older religions: virgin birth, son of god, bringer of light, resurrection, etc. These themes were common enough to make Christianity nothing new, and that in itself is very telling. If the events were real, wouldn't they be something new, and not just a retread of older religious ideas? What I see in Christian myth is the limitations of human imagination. Basically, its authors relied on a lot of existing ideas. When you are documenting actual events, you are not limited in such a manner. Actual events tend to have novel elements, as actual events of this magnitude would be necessarily unprecedented.
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Post by Lusipher »

You should have let this thread die, V. All your going to get is more liberal athiest bullshit so its really not worth it. You cannot explain something to them because they will not ever believe in it and will do everything they can to run you down and your position. Either they will believe or they wont.

I hardly even participate in threads like these anymore because its a waste of everyones time and we should just get rid of sexual and political threads in ALFA altogether. Other communities do just fine without them and you see their communities actually working together and not have tons of animosity at each other because of it. This whole section of the forums has been a bane on ALFAs existance for a number of years.
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

As for the historical existence of Jesus, well while his existence is not as verifiable as the great rulers of his day (who would be more likely to leave some archaeological evidence as well) it does have as much evidence as for the existence of most other historical figures. Most of what we term history, especially from these early era is a mish mash of second, third and even more distant accounts and a great deal of it is filled with much of what we would consider nonsense or overt elements of the supernatural. By the standards most often applied to other figures the gospel themselves would count as historical evidence, the magical bits should be dismissed of course but as they are considered to be either 2nd or third hand accounts that does make them evidence of his existence. Proof? No, but there is much that we consider historical fact that lacks proof, in fact most of it relies on documentary evidence that is quite suspect in its accuracy. One of the first things you learn in history is that you can never really be sure of what actually happened, it’s a bit frustrating actually.

We have no direct proof that Socrates existed and anything that Herodotus says has to be viewed with suspicion (hell he basically has gnolls living in India) but it’s what we have to work with. Were Nero and the later Roman Emperors really as debased as we think? Possibly but it also must be noted that most of what we know of them has come from accounts written by either their enemies or sycophants. Considering the existence of the Gospels, the growth and existence of the Christian Cult, by the base standards of historical analysis he probably existed or at least some figure that attracted enough followers to form some sort of persistent belief system.

It doesn't help that only a small percentage of what was written in that era has survived to the modern day. Look at it his way...in two thousand years Rush Limbaugh's books may be the only documentary evidence of Bill Clinton's existence.

Again this has little to do with the primary debate (that is to say the truth of the Christian creed) but for some reason I'm in a bit of a pedantic mood about history these days, not entirley sure why.
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Post by mxlm »

Pray, let us not be pedantical, for love.
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

Pray, let us not be pedantical, for love.


Never! For I see love for what it is, an illusion concoted by our monkey brains so that we won't leave our children out in a field to be raised by wolves or beavers (though I imagine beavers would make good parents being so industrious and all so it could be argued that if you really love your offspring you should in fact arrange for them to be raised by beavers).

Though I'm much to lazy to keep up any finicky nit-picking for very long.

Edit: The only true way to guarantee historical accuracy is to cut off the heads of our leaders and perserve them in liquid filled jars so that they could serve as a source of information for future historians.

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Post by Jeppan »

I have found the debate refreshing and interesting. Kudos to both Mulu and Vaelahr.
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Post by Mulu »

Glad someone's enjoying it. :)
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Re: "The Religion thread" Part II

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Mulu wrote:This whole Christian reality debate can be put to death quite easily: There is no credible evidence that Jesus even existed.
There is. The Roman historian Tacitus, writing in about 115 A.D., records the events surrounding Emperor Nero in July of A.D. 64. After the fire that destroyed much of Rome, Nero was blamed for being responsible:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition [Christ's resurrection] thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular."

In about 112 A.D. the Roman governor of what is now northern Turkey wrote to Emperor Trajan regarding the Christians in his district:

"I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed. . . whether those who recant should be pardoned. . . whether the name itself, even if innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes attaching to that name. . . . Meanwhile, this is the course that I have adopted in the case of those brought before me as Christians. I ask them if they are Christians. If they admit it I repeat the question a second and a third time, threatening capital punishment; if they persist I sentence them to death. For I do not doubt that, whatever kind of crime it may be to which they have confessed, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy should certainly be punished. . . the very fact of my dealing with the question led to a wider spread of the charge, and a great variety of cases were brought before me. An anonymous pamphlet was issued, containing many names. All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence. . .and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do."

These passages indicate that Christianity was wide spread in the Roman empire within 80 years of Christ's death. Again, these are eyewitness accounts, not historians looking back years later.

The popular historian Will Durant, himself not a Christian, wrote concerning Christ's historical validity, "The denial of that existence seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity". And again, "That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels".

It is a substantial thing that an historian who spends his life considering historical facts should affirm the reality of Christ's existence as well as the rapid growth of the early movement.

The Jewish historian Josephus, writing for the Roman government in the 70's A.D. records some incidental things regarding Christ and the church. He confirms that John the Baptist died at the hand of Herod (this same incident is recorded in the Gospel record) as well as the death of, "The brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James. . . he delivered them to be stoned". Again, we have sources external to the Bible that demonstrate the historical reliability of the text. Josephus, who was probably alive during the time of Christ, is attesting to the reality of his existence. What this also tells us is that within 40 years of Christ's death, the knowledge of who he was was widespread enough that Josephus could reference him and expect his readers to know exactly who he was talking about.

These are just a few sources that have been used extensively in broad historical study. They're even sources hostile to the faith. One should not dismiss or discredit them now just because the evidence they provide is inconvenient or uncomfortable.
Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:
Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:
Thousands of people do not die for what they know to be a lie.


Only a handful would have known it was a lie, perhaps only one, the guy who made up the story in the first place.
Again, how did this handful of folks or this guy steal the body?
I've already answered this question. 10 pieces of silver would do the trick quite nicely.
Extremely doubtful. Let's not forget why Jesus of Nazareth was executed and why his tomb was sealed and guarded in the first place. There was a perceived rebellion positioned against Rome because of Jesus and his followers. Pilate was competent at ending rebellions. A Roman guard unit would be loyal to the governor, Pontius Pilate. Overthrowing an emperor is one thing but allowing a Jewish rebellion to grow from this "Jesus cult" would have been out of the question.
Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:And why? Again, there's no credible answer.
Do you simply not read what I post? A streambed in Texas tells you everthing you need to know about religious people and their willingness to lie to support their beliefs. It's true now and it was true then.
I don't think defining all religious belief by some Texan streambed is very responsible. Those Texans certainly weren't willing to die for their enthusiastic error.
Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:The Jews and Romans both wanted this disruption stopped
This is fallacy #2. If he existed at all, Jesus was trivial in his lifetime.
Not according to Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD) "Because the Jews of Rome caused continous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from the city....After the great fire at Rome [during Nero's reign] ... Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief."
Mulu wrote:His cult was one of many such cults.
What were these other "such cults"? More please.
Mulu wrote:As far as the Romans were concerned, he was just another clueless Jew executed for the crime of sedition, one of hundreds of thousands.
Source? Who were these other seditious Jews?
Mulu wrote:To the Jews, he was one of dozens of cult leaders promising deliverance from Roman occupation through yahweh. He wasn't that important.
Not according to Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, or Lucian the satirist (all non-Christian extra-biblical sources). Certainly important enough for their mention.

And who were just a few of these many "cult leaders promising deliverence"?
Mulu wrote:He was just important enough to kill, which in that time and place didn't take much.
It did take much. Jesus of Nazareth had many followers. Enough that the Jewish authorities required the help of the Roman authorities.
Mulu wrote:Remember, the story of his execution has no corroborating evidence either
Tacitus, Josephus and the Jewish Talmud.
Mulu wrote:
Vaelahr wrote:If they had pulled off a hoax, why would they go to their graves proclaiming that it actually happened.
Because they believed their own lie, just like all other cultists.
People do not die for what they know to be a lie.
Mulu wrote:As for Mithras v Christianity, after looking it up it appears the issue is clouded at best. Nevertheless, Christianity has *many* attributes of older religions: virgin birth, son of god, bringer of light, resurrection, etc. These themes were common enough to make Christianity nothing new, and that in itself is very telling. If the events were real, wouldn't they be something new, and not just a retread of older religious ideas?
How are these themes common? What older religions have "virgin birth, son of god, bringer of light, resurrection, etc."? How is early Christianity plagiaristic of these religions as Mulu and mxlm have so confidently asserted in earlier posts?
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

Divine births or the attribution thereof is fairly common, a great many kings, rulers, and such all claimed divine or heroic ancestry at one point or another. It was also fairly commom for divine charecteristics to be applied post mortem, as with Caesar after his death.
So saying he(Anthony) hitched up his clothing like a man possessed, and girded himself so that he could easily use his hands. He then stood close to the bier as though he were on stage, bending over it and straightening up again, and first of all chanted praise to Caesar as a heavenly deity, raising his hands in witness of Caesar's divine birth and at the same tune rapidly reciting his campaigns and battles and victories, and the peoples he had brought under his country's rule, and the spoils he had sent home. He presented each as a marvel and constantly cried 'This man alone emerged victorious over all those who did battle with him.'
Appian of Alexandria, The Roman History

Again plagerism is not the proper term, rather it is an example of a common cultural behavior during this time period and not at all unusual. It was rare for an important man not to claim some sort of divine or heroic heritage and if for some reason he failed to it was usually applied to them by their followers.

In a similar vein resurrection was far more rare but there are examples, the most notable and earliest that I can think off the top of my head would be Osiris (though his resurrection was a bit less than complete due to the lack of a very important part :P )

It is not at all unlikly that as Christianity developed from a branch of Judaism into a distinct system of belief (one which did include a growing number of adherants from the polytheistic faiths) that it would adapt some of their trappings. These trappings would have served to legitimize the faith in the eyes of some of these early converts, similar to how the monotheistic god of Christianity began to take on the attributes of the traditional sky/war gods as the faith spread northwards into Europe ie Christianity gained legitimacy when Germanic Chieftens calling upon the christian god defeated those who called upon the older deities, the Christian god proved itself the stronger thus more worthy of worship. A somewhat practical means of choosing religion, to a certain extent this is also somewhat the type of conversion credited to constantine though he did not convert in actuality until his final days.
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Post by mxlm »

Again plagerism is not the proper term
Nor was it intended to be.

At least when I used it.
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