Just remember

[Mord]

[Mulu]

If you can't beat em, join em.

Better known as reconciliation. There simply cannot be a political solution w/o cooperation. Remember, if we're working with THEM then they are working with US, which is a lot better than shooting at us. Cooperation is a two way street.

Yes but remember the end goal. Even if we make friends with all the various factions in Iraq, and we won't, it won't make any difference. They have to make friends with each other.

But none of that really matters does it? You - like most Democrats - are vested in a failed Iraq, not a successful one.

Nonsense, I'm just not willing to listen to a strategy that relies predominantly on "hope." I'm also more than a little disgusted with the gross incompetence both the military and the State Department have evidenced in the last four years. I wouldn't trust these people to fix a marriage, much less a civil war. This is what happens when you hire people to important positions based on loyalty and ideology rather than competence, you get a bunch of morons who can't do the job.

[ç i p h é r]

We may not make friends with everyone, but the more the better for obvious reasons.

And while I agree with you that the initial stages of the war were marred by poor planning and serious incompetence, that's not characteristic of what's happening now, from the snippets I read now and again anyway. Take this report for instance:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070915/ap_ ... ite_sheiks

[Rotku]

I suggest we avoid armed conflict with Iran, because I think it would be a nuclear conflict. However, if diplomacy fails, that could be an option if things get ugly.

Meh. Diplomacy only fails when the incompetent listen to the stupid.

[Magonushi]

I suggest we avoid armed conflict with Iran, because I think it would be a nuclear conflict. However, if diplomacy fails, that could be an option if things get ugly.

Meh. Diplomacy only fails when the incompetent listen to the stupid.

You forgot General Apathy and Major Insanity. Oh and don't leave out Sergeant Religious Dogma either.

[ç i p h é r]

Diplomacy only fails when the incompetent listen to the stupid.

Need we invoke Godwin's Law?

[Veilan]

I'm a Nazi, does me posting invoke Godwin's Law?

[Rotku]

Diplomacy only fails when the incompetent listen to the stupid.

Need we invoke Godwin's Law?

My point still stands

[Mulu]

We may not make friends with everyone, but the more the better for obvious reasons.

And while I agree with you that the initial stages of the war were marred by poor planning and serious incompetence, that's not characteristic of what's happening now, from the snippets I read now and again anyway. Take this report for instance:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070915/ap_ ... ite_sheiks

I don't see how adding more warlords to the equation actually helps anything, and that's exactly what arming sheiks and tribes will do. Now tribes are fighting extremist insurgency and militia factions; it's just more bullets in the air. You can't create reconciliation by stoking the fires of conflict, a lesson the Bush Administration will never understand, nor will the military. And I'm not so sure the Sunnis will soon forget our destruction of Al Fallujah, or the prisons of Abu Ghraib, or all of our other attempts to pound them into submission, even if most Americans and the media have, nor will the Shiites understand our arming the Sunni insurgency, especially if those arms end up being used to kill them. Revenge is a way of life in the Middle East, and their memories are long. ME diplomacy is a lot more like brain surgery than it is craps, and all we have are neocon gamblers setting policy.

At this point the *only* solution remaining is diplomatic, and we can do that without trying to babysit a civil war.

Let's not forget who this sheik was either. As a report in Time described him:
Sheikh Sattar, whose tribe is notorious for highway banditry, is also building a personal militia, loyal not to the Iraqi government but only to him. Other tribes — even those who want no truck with terrorists — complain they are being forced to kowtow to him. Those who refuse risk being branded as friends of al-Qaeda and tossed in jail, or worse. In Baghdad, government delight at the Anbar Front's impact on al-Qaeda is tempered by concern that the Marines have unwittingly turned Sheikh Sattar into a warlord who will turn the province into his personal fiefdom.

In June, Abu Risha's position in the Anbar Salvation Council came under a fairly intense internal challenge. As the Washington Post reported at the time:

Ali Hatem Ali Suleiman, 35, a leader of the Dulaim confederation, the largest tribal organization in Anbar, said that the Anbar Salvation Council would be dissolved because of growing internal dissatisfaction over its cooperation with U.S. soldiers and the behavior of the council's most prominent member, Abdul Sattar Abu Risha. Suleiman called Abu Risha a "traitor" who "sells his beliefs, his religion and his people for money."

I'm not at all convinced he was killed by AQ, or any other Islamist order. I suspect it was a rival tribe, who of course will not claim the killing because they want US money. Seriously, the place is a cluster.

[Zakharra]

At this point the *only* solution remaining is diplomatic, and we can do that without trying to babysit a civil war.

That is just wishful thinking. Non violent diplomancy will only work of both sides are willing to work and comprimise. Which isn't going to happen. You can have all of the chair polishers in the world and nothing will get resolved if one side is willing to resort to violence to get it's way.

[Mulu]

[ç i p h é r]

So, the number of deaths are still declining and we're now almost at the end of October.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071023/ap_ ... hs_decline

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20071023/w ... imilitants

Unless we take a dramatic step back here in the coming week, the strategy does appear to be working. Perhaps the Armenians are indeed being used as political fodder by Democrats to try and sabotage progress. It at least seems to add up politically, unfortunately. A successful Iraq strategy simply would not bode well for Democrats in the 2008 election.

[fluffmonster]

maybe. I've been hearing stories of US servicemen and women forging bonds with tribal and other community leaders, and that's having some positive results. At the same time, many militias have the control they want and they are nothing more than gangs of thugs and thieves. So, is violence down because things are improving, or because things have hit rock bottom? Either way, the important question is what improvement can be gained from here.

Of course, Iraq may not be the big story anymore. Seems some folks in Washington and Jerusalem are itching to take the fight to Iran now.

[Rotku]

Of course, Iraq may not be the big story anymore. Seems some folks in Washington and Jerusalem are itching to take the fight to Iran now.

Just hope congress have enough sense to check that chimpanzee this time. Attacking a bunch of militants is one thing, but taking on a country with a organized army is a completely different pizza.

[Veilan]

Attacking a bunch of militants is one thing, but taking on a country with a organized army is a completely different pizza.

Yeah - organized armies can be defeated and surrender, for starters.