The Religion thread

[Nekulor]

I forgive my enemies. Enemies of humanity get special treatment.

[Veilan]

Meh.

Forgive my absence, but what with standards v10 in the works and Rusty expecting his staff to work while he's away, my board time was mostly focussed on constructive stuff .

Mulu... who cares about rationality? Seriously, my point was "an open mind", not rationality. I can accept I don't know, since I really don't, and don't have to try to convince myself with logical tricks or implying I'm somehow smarter if I'm convinced I know. I have my own ideas and doubts - but something being very improbable doesn't mean it has to be impossible. Just like lightspeed tests were supposedly the result was measured before the laser beam was actually triggered. Seems irrational to me... yet physicists claim that happened. Personally, I don't know. Which is all there is to me - a-gnosticism. Maybe there's a god, or more likely there isn't, or maybe there is a god how we create him in our minds. I simply think we as humans don't have the necessary mental equipment to understand the universe and everything in it because it's just not required to be a successful race. Perhaps sometime we will, just like sometime we managed to fly through the sky in metal boxes. Something pretty sure scientists of former times deemed impossible, due to the laws and theories they knew and had at that time.

In any case, I'm really comfortable with my point of view because I don't belittle atheists, nor do I have trouble respecting people's beliefs and spirituality, unless they strike me as profoundly detrimental to the wellbeing of others, or in some cases themselves. As I said, on paper I'm a Protestant - that is, in Germany the Protestants are the laid back ones, while the Catholics pray for show and make a really big fuss about their faith. Their beer, just not what I think Jesuses ideas were at all - many of which can be considered quite inspiring no matter whether you believe there was "divine" inspiration or "just" a stroke of genius. Of course, he's not the only worthwhile philosopher.

Now, that leads to Vaelahrs questions for me...

Don't pray for show, indeed. Which in my interpretation includes praying in public, carrying a cross visibly around your neck, or demanding crucifixes be put up in school. The way I see it, faith is a private matter that you should not do because you are looking for a cheap excuse for group dynamical processes and profiling, but something that should inspire your ethics and works. Personally I wouldn't need Christianity for that - humanism really does suffice. Incidentally humanism, about which's rather strong roots in Germany I don't need to tell you - Kant, Herder, you name them, does have Christian roots.

To the burdening part, I'm not very Bible savvy, it just came to me from a minister, whom I asked "hey, I don't really believe this all". He told me that was quite alright, if I didn't turn away from it all, but instead had an open dialogue about those doubts. Basically, an inclusive discussion as opposed to an exclusive one, which we in our vanity and psychological systems of propping up our self-esteem are so quick to turn to (I actually interpret that to be part of the turn the other cheek part as well - if you turn the cheek to a backhanded slap, you will have to get the next one with the inside of the hand, i.e., an incluse conflict instead of an exclusive one... but personal interpretation there).

As to your second question...

I have to fully and openly admit I consider it implausible the Holy Ghost impregnated a mortal woman and spawned Jesus. I don't say it's impossible, I just have a hard time believing that - as Mulu hinted at with Ockham's razor, we in Germany say "If you hear hooves, think of horses first, then zebras." (of course that saying would work the other way around in Africa ). I'm not ruling out the zebras... I wouldn't even rule out a guy who cut off the hooves off a horse and walks on them. I just don't see a strong reason to believe it, unless I'm convinced by strong evidence that is in fact what happened.

So... I'm not saying "I know Jesus wasn't divine!", I'm saying "I don't believe Jesus was divine.". Some parts of the Bible are definetely impressively progressive - de-escalation instead of the all too human vicious circle of violence, retaliation, re-retaliation... but there are more likely explanations to me than them being divinely inspired.

I hope I answered your questions, and am grateful for the chance to have an interested, non-hostile discussion about the issue of faith here. Thanks!

Cheers all,

[Nekulor]

Thanks alara. I feel like everything I say is being micro analyzed and picked apart to find the most controversial pieces, where I am then roasted for not being able to prove the existence of god. I honestly don't feel I need a rational reason to justify the existence of god. Sometimes you just have to believe in something, in my opinion. I feel god exists, I don't know why honestly. Something simply compels me to feel that there is a god and he exists.

If you want to know why I say take violent action against certain groups, like Muslim extremists, it is because I don't see someone like Osama taking to the idea of "love thy fellow man like your brother." Just a thought there, Mulu. One side of me says, "Why can't we all just get along and have peace, dammit!" while the other says, "The extremist factions in the middle east will never come to the table and work this out rationally." I would love to see a peaceful resolution in the middle east. I just get so damn frustrated because it is so hard to strike a medium between sending a message to these brutal bastards and still being moral about it.

Mulu, I don't appreciate the personal attacks, like I said before. I haven't resorted to calling you anything. I'm not spouting anti-atheist hate speak, but you can sit here and spout anti Christian rhetoric that you could easily pull from any extreme anti-religious group with no repercussions, even to resorting to insinuating that my beliefs are neolithic. I'm sorry, but I believe you have overstepped your bounds there Mulu. I understand the concept of a straw man, Its a valid argumentative technique, but your last post seemed to contain veiled or even blatant ad hominem attacks against me and my views. Maybe you could try leaving them out of this discussion, because I believe we are fully capable of discussing this without degenerating to that level.

Alara, thanks again for the dose of sanity.

[Mulu]

I simply think we as humans don't have the necessary mental equipment to understand the universe and everything in it

And that is a fundamental disagreement between us, as the primary thesis of science is that the Universe is natural and understandable.

It's also historically the primary reason people believed in gods. You've obviously skipped a few posts in this thread, since I've already dealt with how god fills in the blanks of our understanding, until our understanding increases, ultimately eliminating the need for a god at all.

In any case, I'm really comfortable with my point of view because I don't belittle atheists

Obviously you aren't referring to this thread.

Something simply compels me to feel that there is a god and he exists.

You know, there's quite a few studies showing that certain types of brain activity induce religious thoughts. Maybe it's a chemical imbalance? You should research it for fun.

If you want to know why I say take violent action against certain groups, like Muslim extremists, it is because I don't see someone like Osama taking to the idea of "love thy fellow man like your brother."

But Osama isn't the one in Gitmo. Seriously, have you forgotten everything that everyone has said here? And since when do two wrongs make a right?

Mulu, I don't appreciate the personal attacks, like I said before.

I don't recall making any personal attacks against you. Challenging your statements, even statement about your beliefs, is called "debate." It's also the premise of the thread. Calling you a retard would be a personal attack, but I don't do that to you, only to Alara, and only because he started it.

I'm not spouting anti-atheist hate speak, but you can sit here and spout anti Christian rhetoric that you could easily pull from any extreme anti-religious group with no repercussions, even to resorting to insinuating that my beliefs are neolithic.

Well, the source of them is. The source of the idea of god comes from the Neolithic, according to paleoanthropologists. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact about everyone who believes in god. You should try to understand that fact and consider it when forming your beliefs, rather than dismiss it as a personal attack. See, what you're doing here is reading stuff that threatens your current cognitive status quo, and rather than challenge your beliefs over it you'd rather paint it all as a personal attack that can be dismissed without analysis.

As for hate speech, your anti-Muslim hate speech reaches genocidal levels. Something you should seriously think about.

I understand the concept of a straw man, Its a valid argumentative technique

No, it's actually a fallacy. Technically, it's a form of lying. When making a straw man argument, a person is purposefully misconstruing another's position with the intent to decieve. That's lying. Now, we're all prone to exaggeration at times, but if someone calls you on it, you need to concede, not claim it's a valid strategy.

but your last post seemed to contain veiled or even blatant ad hominem attacks against me and my views.

Attacks against your views is called "debate." Again, I've made no attacks against you, other than perhaps calling you "hopeless," which given your statement of indomitable faith no matter what information you are presented with was apparently accurate.

There is a big difference between running a gel electrophoresis or an assay and actually understanding the role of molecules in vitro, or their evolutionary history. You have a huge step up on most would be scientists with your practical lab experience; now it's time to learn the theories. While you're learning those theories, you're going to have to keep an open mind and realize that the vast majority of hard scientists, especially Biologists and Physicists, reject Intelligent Design. Science is about evidence and knowledge, not dogma and faith and irrational beliefs. Certainly it's possible to pick and choose what you believe regarding science, but it causes tremendous cognitive dissonance, and you'll never reach the full heights of scientific inquiry. Challenging your beliefs is good for you, especially at your age.

[Killthorne]

I know I should follow what I say more often, but here's one for us all: Keep your abstract beliefs to yourselves.

In my life, I've went from lutheran to baptist, to lutheran again, to atheism, to druidism, to zen-buddhism, to believing that everything is "god" like some sort of cosmic force.... and for a time, atheism again...until I just found contentment and reason within simple, nameless christianity. It's what gives me peace of mind, regardless of what anyone else believes or analyzes. And not because I am afraid of death or the need to have a thereafter. I love his teachings and the man himself. I don't go to church, I don't believe in most things christians do nowadays, and have no intent on shoving a bible down anyone's throats anytime soon. World's far too gone for that.

And far as this topic concerns me, it really doesn't. It's a puffing of an invisible chest. Look at me! I am atheist and intelligently superior because I need proof! Look at me! I am filled with faith and righteous that I believe in god and a soul! Personally, I think it's all a buncha hot air.

~Killthorne~

[NickD]

I don't particularily believe you.

You want to see my first paper? I have a link handy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

There it is. JT Quesinberry.

Uh huh. I'm a super ninja. Wanna see me in action? I have a picture handy.



There it is. I'm the guy on the right.

[Nekulor]

Nick, fine, believe me or don't, but that is my first paper. It lists my High School as one of the institutions if you look at the footnotes on the full paper. What, do you need a picture of me, my driver's license, and the paper all with my name bolded and highlighted so you can make a forensic comparison? Hell, Dan has my myspace. Dan has seen pictures of me.

I got into the lab at 12 because I met the professor running by chance during a visit to UMD's campus, we got talking about the subject for a few hours, and he offered to give me a job in his lab. I've been working there ever since.

Mulu, obviously I misunderstood some of your previous post then. Sometimes things aren't conveyed very clearly over the internet. As for my "anti-muslim hate speech":
1.I don't hate Muslims. Muslims are generally cool. I have Muslim friends. I hate nutty Muslim militants. Hating a single religion would be wrong and insensitive, disagreement is fine....well, unless its like Satanism. I think that's just stupid.

2. I have never in any way suggested all Muslims are in the wrong. I have never said kill torture and maim everyone at Gitmo. I thought I made it relatively clear that I only would allow that in cases when these people have been legitimately convicted of terrorist acts or crimes against humanity. I believe that people guilty of such acts are incapable of retaining their own rights if they take those of countless innocents.

[Nekulor]

I know I should follow what I say more often, but here's one for us all: Keep your abstract beliefs to yourselves.

In my life, I've went from lutheran to baptist, to lutheran again, to atheism, to druidism, to zen-buddhism, to believing that everything is "god" like some sort of cosmic force.... and for a time, atheism again...until I just found contentment and reason within simple, nameless christianity. It's what gives me peace of mind, regardless of what anyone else believes or analyzes. And not because I am afraid of death or the need to have a thereafter. I love his teachings and the man himself. I don't go to church, I don't believe in most things christians do nowadays, and have no intent on shoving a bible down anyone's throats anytime soon. World's far too gone for that.

And far as this topic concerns me, it really doesn't. It's a puffing of an invisible chest. Look at me! I am atheist and intelligently superior because I need proof! Look at me! I am filled with faith and righteous that I believe in god and a soul! Personally, I think it's all a buncha hot air.

~Killthorne~

Killthorne wins this thread.

[NickD]

Nick, fine, believe me or don't, but that is my first paper. It lists my High School as one of the institutions if you look at the footnotes on the full paper. What, do you need a picture of me, my driver's license, and the paper all with my name bolded and highlighted so you can make a forensic comparison? Hell, Dan has my myspace. Dan has seen pictures of me.

Can all be faked with stuff you find on the internet. You could share your name with your father.

As you were the one the made the claim, the burden of proof falls on you.

[Nekulor]

Fine, believe what you will. When the article about it shows up in the Washington Post, I'll send it to you.Besides, Dad's name is John.

Honestly, I think you're doing the disbelief thing to irk me.

[Mulu]

Killthorne wins this thread.

Nah, posting in a thread to claim it's beneath you isn't a win, it's a hypocrisy. You have to stay out to stay above. He's just taking pot shots without having the courage to play.

Besides, it's the topic of the thread to debate which belief system is closest to reality (which by default is atheism since all others lay claim to the supernatural). Killy won't play because he knows he'll get massacred.

It's true you can believe anything you want, Bush believes he's going to prevail in Iraq, but believing in something doesn't make it real. It might make you qualify as delusional though, rights or no.

[Killthorne]

No, I find religion vs. atheism debate completely pointless. You might as well run into a wall for the same effect. And I don't think the topic had anything to do with being closest to realism, since reality is in the eye of the beholder, and therefore I don't claim it beneath me by any means. A waste of time yes, but not beneath me. And yes, you can think me "delusional" but I can just shrug, smile, and think what I think without worrying one iota that you do. It's a part of persecution for my beliefs, and so be it.

The only people getting massacred here are ones that find argument in this. I guess some people just like smashing their heads into each other like a pair of rutting mountain goats, over things that will never change.

Edit: Oh, yes, and on a sidenote: My beliefs are pretty humble, and have no similiarities to Bush believing we can win in Iraq, nor in the justification for revenge. Be thankful atleast, that my "delusions in the supernatural" are passive and have moral compass. Someone who claims themselves christian has gotta have them... so might as well start with myself.

I find religious zealotry just as dangerous as atheists with their own value system. That can be just as a delusional, and destructive, in my mind.


~Killthorne~

[Nekulor]

I honestly don't know why I drag myself into these religion vs atheism debates, Killthorne. I guess its my politically combative nature that drives me to prove the other argument wrong...even when we're trying to prove a belief system.

[Killthorne]

I know why Nekulor.. it's that feeling ( from both sides of the debate) that you just wanna smack the other up alongside the head, to "save" them. From being "unintelligent" in believing in a higher power that relies solely on faith, and from the negative aspects to religion itself ( people that have no clue what they are following), to showing someone that doesn't believe in anything that there is a grander scheme to things beyond what we have "unlocked" and determined as "fact". And it goes on and on, as to the reasons.

It's truly pointless though.

~Killthorne~

[Nekulor]

Yea, I guess you're right. I won't change them and they won't change me, so why argue over it?